Mike is joined by David Nelson, Co-Founder and CEO of Limelight Inc, to discuss programmatic advertising. David shares insights from his career, starting in the insurance industry and transitioning into digital marketing and ad tech.
He explains how Limelight operates as a programmatic advertising trading platform, connecting publishers and advertisers. David also highlights the unique challenges marketers face in the programmatic landscape and how Limelight uses context and data to enhance ad performance.
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About Nobl9
Founded in London in 2018, Limelight Inc. was created as an answer to the complexity and inefficiency of the ad tech world. The industry, while tech accelerated lacked clarity and experienced human oversight, leaving professionals ill-equipped and frustrated in a maze of complex tools and processes.
David Nelson and James Macdonald, co-founders of the company and pioneers in the media world, realized that the true power of programmatic advertising wasn’t just the technology, but also pairing it with real human expertise.
Today Limelight Inc. combines cutting edge technology with a team of dedicated professionals, eager to guide and support. We don’t offer just a platform – we offer partnership, ensuring every one of our many members feels confident and empowered to navigate the programmatic space and serve advertisers more effectively.
About David Nelson
David Nelson is Co-founder & CEO of Limelight, his particular areas of focus are product development, technical development and client success.
Prior to founding Limelight, David had been active within digital marketing for nearly 20 years. Most recently, a 2-year consultancy spell working closely with his co-founder, James Macdonald, gave them the time to formulate the plan for Limelight.
Before this, David was with AdTech firm Rocket Fuel as VP Product & Operations EMEA. Rocket Fuel was acquired following a successful IPO by Sizemek in 2017.
David’s experience also includes a successful exit after two years with Lumatag, a company he founded in 2013 to provide online tag management and business intelligence for publishers and ad networks.
Outside of work, David is a keen tennis player, an enthusiastic appreciator of wine, and a collector of classic cars. He currently spends half of his year in Spain, where he has business interests in hospitality, and half in the UK.
Time Stamps
00:00:18 – Guest Introduction: David Nelson of Limelight
00:00:42 – David’s Career Journey
00:02:40 – The Benefits of Programmatic Advertising for Marketers
00:07:51 – Limelight’s Unique Position in the Market
00:12:33 – Trends in Programmatic Advertising
00:16:29 – Marketing Strategy for Limelight
00:21:10 – The Story Behind Limelight’s Formation
00:24:45 – Advice for Young Marketers
00:25:41 – Valuable Marketing Advice Received
00:26:20 – Closing Remarks and Contact Information
Quotes
“The problem we solve is how do you manage trillions and trillions of ad opportunities and find the right people to fill those ad spaces?” David Nelson, Co-Founder and CEO of Limelight.
“The ability to truly understand the context, truly understand the moment… is critically important and incredibly valuable to marketers.” David Nelson, Co-Founder and CEO of Limelight
“There’s always going to be challenges, and I think that the exciting thing about the business that we’re in is that we don’t really understand or know where those challenges are going to come from.” David Nelson, Co-Founder and CEO of Limelight
Follow David:
David Nelson on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidnelson12/
Limelight’s website: https://www.limelight.inc/
Limelight on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/limelightinc/
Follow Mike:
Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/
Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/
Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/
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Transcript: Interview with David Nelson at Limelight
Speakers: Mike Maynard, David Nelson
Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today. Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today, I’m joined by David Nelson. David is the founder and CEO of Limelight. Welcome to the podcast, David.
David: Hi, Mike. Pleased to be here.
Mike: So we’re going to dive into Limelight and the world of programmatic advertising in a minute. But before we start, can you just give us an overview of your career and what’s led you to found Limelight?
David: Oh, so those who are seeing this on video will know that I’m very old, so my career highlights could go on for a long time. I had a software career in the insurance industry up until around 2007. At that point in time, I realized that insurance was never going to change, and it was dull and very boring. And I wanted something that was a bit more challenging and fast-paced, and I came across digital marketing. And I joined a company back then called Unanimous, where I worked for, well, five years at Unanimous and five more years with Orange, because Orange acquired them. I ran their technology and I ran their ads delivery platforms, later on at Orange, moving my scope to Europe. And then after that period of 10 years, which was super, we’d seen OpenX emerge from that business, and we’d seen the Orange Ad Network emerge from that business, some early kind of programmatic platforms. I moved to Rocketfuel, who at the time were pioneering the use of AI in the advertising world. And I spent five years there building that business throughout Europe and then left for what I thought at the time was going to be a summer off, which then turned into building the limelight business. And so I spent a good many years now, not quite 20, but a good many years in digital advertising and programmatic in general. Brilliant. And what problem are you solving with Limelight? What does it actually do? So Limelight, we like to describe it as a 360 degree programmatic trading platform. And once we understand what that means, I do appreciate that that’s not necessarily digestible. So let me try and explain. So our clients will use us to bring supply as a publisher to our platform. And then they’ll find demand relationships that want to buy that supply. And we’ll make an exchange happen in the middle, like a stock exchange programmatic execution. So some of our clients will be publishers, some will be ad networks generally. But the problem we solve is how do you manage trillions and trillions of ad opportunities and find the right people to fill those ad spaces? That’s what we do with our platform.
Mike: So most of our listeners are going to be marketers, so clients like. I mean, what for them does programmatic actually mean? You know, you talk about letting people buy ads. You’re obviously doing that on an individual basis really, really quickly. How does that differ from, for example, going to a publisher and just buying all the ads on the homepage?
David: If you wanted all of the ads on the homepage, that would be a great thing to do. Go and find the right publisher. You have the challenge, of course, in the fact that there are, I don’t know, how many millions, trillions of publishers in the world. How do you find the right ones amongst that mix? You’ve got that challenge. Programmatic will alleviate that problem by making sure that you have access to a huge selection of the supply side, be it a web publisher or in-app or an audio or a CTV publisher. And then you have the challenge, if you look at it in the old school way, of placing an IO, finding the right person, placing your order, negotiating your costs, all of these things. Then you have the challenge of halfway through running your campaign, you realize actually you didn’t want to run that campaign, you wanted it to change and do something else. So Programmatic gets around all of these things, and it makes the whole process automated. So it’s an operational saving, you have the ability to find more success in more diverse places, and you have the ability to adapt and change at the blink of an eye.
Mike: That’s interesting. I mean, I think there’s lots of different forms of programmatic advertising, and maybe a lot of us looked at programmatic advertising a while ago, and it was fairly simplistic. I mean, actually, what makes really effective B2B programmatic advertising campaigns?
David: So I think you’re right. I mean, on the very simplistic side of things, you simply target a few IP addresses or some device IDs. You target a certain geography. It’s obviously possible now to use that low on mobile devices and really tie that geography down. But then again, you’re still relying on geography. What I think is really interesting is that, in fact, the programmatic space of the last year or so has lost access to a lot of the data that we commonly had with the advent of GDPR and various other things. Data is now more strictly controlled, meaning there’s perhaps less free available data. But that’s made us think and challenge our status quo a great deal. So now we have the ability, it’s almost like we went back 10 years and we realized that the context of advertising is critically still important. Programmatic has the ability to bring huge amounts of data from the publisher side about the context. So really understand where the ads are going. So I think this for me and for us is the future of really getting past broad splashing of advertising across an IP address and losing out on data. We come back to context, we truly understand where that ad is gonna be displayed, and we understand the right moments for displaying that ad. And in that way, I think we actually will end up in a much stronger place than we were even two years ago.
Mike: So that context is really interesting. Can you give us some examples of some of that context information you could get through programmatic that maybe you couldn’t get another way?
David: An awful lot of the marketer’s job today has changed from putting a banner ad on a website to actually engaging with content. And so the issue with content is you need to understand whether it’s surrounded by negative or positive sentiment, for instance. You need to understand whether it is content that is within an environment that is supportive of your message. You need to understand whether it’s sponsored by your competitors. You need to understand all these things. So your publishers, in the programmatic sense, will be prepared and willing and will desire to share this type of data with a platform like Limelight, because it makes their programmatic supply far more valuable. And so instead of getting a small kind of $1 CPM, cost per mil, they’ll get 10 or 12 because they’ve shared richer data about the context. And so there’s a huge amount. I mean, if you think about just a simple web page, what you can understand from it, not just from what you see, but from the metadata that sits behind its constructs, there’s a huge amount of information that can be captured and shared. And publishers are prepared to do this because it increases their revenue. And of course, publishers like to increase their revenue.
Mike: I mean, that’s fascinating as someone who’s perhaps, you know, not very well educated. I mean, presumably the difference is you can buy the homepage of a publication or you can actually put ads on that homepage when the stories are relevant to your product and positive about the kind of things you do. That sounds like a major boost in terms of performance of ads. You know, your ads are going to perform better. That’s the argument that we would make.
David: But don’t forget, the programmatic also allows you to do both. So this homepage takeover, as we referred to it years ago, is still possible in the programmatic sense. You can still work on a programmatic guarantee basis and make sure your ads are going to be placed and take up all of that content for a period of time or for a particular set of users, et cetera, et cetera. So both are possible, but for me, I think that the ability to truly understand the context, truly understand the moment, truly understand whether or not you are able to engage with that lead and nurture that lead through to the next stage of your marketing journey is critically important and incredibly valuable to marketers.
Mike: I mean, this all sounds very exciting, but obviously, the market is quite competitive. There’s lots of programmatic platforms. So I’m interested about LineLight particularly here, you know, what do you do uniquely well in this market?
David: So I guess we’re a B2B organization ourselves. So our partners that come on board are looking at the broad spectrum of programmatic platforms that they could work with. And they’re asking, why Limelight? So it’s a great question. And in a space that I think has become fairly commoditized in terms of technology. It’s harder to stand out by saying that my AI is bigger than his AI. Everybody has very similar sounding features and functions. Our reflection point a couple of years ago when we started looking about who we wanted to be as a company came from the fact that Actually, we are partner first, okay? So I think that because we’re problematic, because we’re driving technology, people forgot in this world that we occupy that people still exist, and people still buy advertising, and people still make relationships. From our perspective, being partner first, which for us means making sure we make the right decision for the partner rather than making the right decision for Limelight. And at times that can feel painful, but it’s the right thing to do ultimately in the long term. It means making sure that we are there to support our partners when they have a challenge. All too often, we all use software, right? So we all know that very, very often it’s very easy for a software company to say, well, it’s not my problem. It wasn’t my technology. It’s somebody else’s technology. Go and speak to them. So we absolutely won’t do that. If our partner has a problem and we’re in a position where we can help because we have the knowledge and resources to do so, then we will lean in and we will help even if it’s not a problem with our platform. Programmatic can sometimes, engage with multiple agencies to get a campaign live. And it’s really, really important that I call it pierce the veil of responsibility. It’s one of my NAF terms that I use in the company all the time. But I really want us to make sure that the partner’s problem is solved. It doesn’t matter whose fault it is, let’s solve the problem and move on and make everyone successful. So that’s the key thing that stands out.
I think the other thing that we’re trying to do is, I think I said earlier on, I spent five years with Rockefeller selling a very, very good AI-driven tool. They spent $200 million on AI, and it was amazing, truly. But on a human level, it was really unsatisfactory, because at a human level, people just don’t like that the machine is making decisions without them knowing what decision has been made. They hate it, in fact. And so what we’ve tried to do with the Limelight platform, yes, of course, we have AI, tick the box. But we also have the ability for our partners to, without code, tailor that AI and bring their DNA, their USP, their personality of their company to the system. So what I like to refer to as real intelligence. So we’ve got artificial intelligence, but the partner has real intelligence within their business. They might have operational systems that we can automate. They might have data that they own that we can bring to the platform. Whatever it is that makes them important and stand out, their own USP, as a partner-led organization, we want that to become part of delivery on the limelight platform.
Mike: I love that. So, I mean, these customers, obviously, there’s lots of benefits. I mean, can you paint a picture of some of those partners that you work with and the kind of businesses they’re in?
David: Yeah, so we will work with publishers who have owned and operated sites and apps. They may extend their supplier, available supplier, by partnering with parties, etc. It’s a typical model the publishers have followed over the years, building their own ad network. We may work with ad networks in their own right, who don’t own or operate anything, but sit in the middle, have really strong curation skills, so that they know the scope and span of the supplier side of the world, or conversely, they know the scope and span of what agencies need and how they can deliver for them. And then we use our platform to either curate, run agency campaigns with specific targeting requirements, or both of those things on the platform. And then we’ll work with agencies on the demand side who just have an innate desire, perhaps, and then actually across all three of these, there’s an innate desire to in some way become independent of the Google money, right? So the digital trading world of ad networks and digital media in general is pretty heavily Google dependent in terms of money. And there’s a real desire across all of our client types right now to think about, well, how do I make sure I exist and I can independently carry on if Google decide they don’t love me anymore? And so we’re looking at a lot of solutions around that conundrum. That’s why they come to Limelight, I guess.
Mike: And I think the whole question around Google and Google’s dominance of advertising is probably a good one for another podcast episode. But I think anyone who’s encountered some problems with Google will understand why that independence is an issue.
David: I’m really conflicted, because actually I think it’s horrid that we champion a company or an individual in this world, and then when they’re successful, we turn around and we bash them. But at the same time, they are a huge dominant player, and some caution is required.
Mike: And I think the reality is that, particularly in the B2B space, not very many publications nor advertisers actually count as being significant to Google. You have to be very, very large in our space to even get on Google’s radar. And I think that’s a frustration of a lot of people.
David: I think that’s the biggest challenge. Really, it is. You phrased it incredibly well. You have to become significant. Becoming significant to Google is almost impossible now because they don’t have any peers.
Mike: They are out there on their own. This is interesting. Obviously, this move to independence is a trend, but I’m interested to know what you see as the big trends in programmatic and maybe what you think happened last year, so a brief history of what’s changed, and then maybe what you think is going to change this year.
David: AI happened last year and the year before, perhaps. It’s really a strong message now. I think if you look at any programmatic platform, AI is going to be the first thing they say to you. So that will certainly continue through this year and on to the future. That’s not going to go away anyway. And we’re going to see, let’s be honest, we’re going to see some incredible and revolutionary things done with AI. Whether or not we’re all on board with the change or not is a different debate, but it’s going to happen. The challenge last year perhaps around, or last few years around data, the eradication, GDPR and other kind of CCPA stuff in America has challenged the industry certainly. And it’s, I think I said earlier on, it’s made people challenge and think about what the future beyond freedom of data is. We are seeing CTV, huge rise in CTV last year and a massive rise in CTV this year too. When we talk about CTV, it’s important to say that if you look at your smart TVs apps that are available, there are thousands and thousands and just like there are for your phone these days. And so the amount of CTV companies that now exist is incredible, huge. And you have the same problem there. How do you create that inventory? How do you understand and bring it together so that a agency buyer can access that at a scale that is worthwhile. Nobody wants to buy five impressions a week. They want a scale that’s worthwhile. CTV has really come to the fore. There’s always new formats coming across. We’re seeing audio on the rise. We’re seeing digital out of home now on the rise for this year. What happened last year as a frustration point for me was the lack of standardization. So the IAB spent a lot of time devising OpenRTB standards. And that was great for a period of time, really good. But all I’m seeing now is everybody does it differently again. Everyone has their own unique way of doing it. So in a world where we like standardization, the lack of standardization has been a challenge. Whether that will go backwards, and I would like to see that happen again. I’d like to see us get back to a standard operating mode, but we’ll see. There’s always going to be challenges, and I think that the exciting thing about the business that we’re in is that we don’t really understand or know where those challenges are going to come from. They drop on us frequently every quarter, and we have to change track and be agile and think about things differently. And certainly, we as an organization will be driven by our partners. So our partners’ use case is critical to us thinking about what it is that we should build.
Mike: I mean one of those areas I think is really interesting to B2B marketers so probably because LinkedIn have launched a CTV service. How difficult is it for someone who’s in B2B to maybe move beyond the classic sort of web display ads and actually move into connected TV. Is that something you think we should be doing more of and it should grow or is it more of a fad.
David: It’s not a fad. I think it’s going to be a massive, massive growth area. Our business has seen CTV tripling for the last two years, and there’s no sign of it slowing down. So it’s certainly not a fad. I think it’s something that everyone should embrace. And there’s different levels of embracing it, right? So CTV as a format and CTV as an environment need to be split, perhaps. So you can advertise in CTV environments without having to have CTV video formats. Or indeed, you can go the full hog and you can develop more materialized CTV video formats and push them through. The delivery, actually, of both of those things, from our perspective, is the same. So the creative is the layer. And this is the interesting dynamic, I suppose, from your last question, we could have talked about the power shift. Publishers are now taking control of a great deal more, but also the creative layer is coming back and becoming far more important as well. And so for CTV, the creative layer is obviously critically important.
Mike: And so getting that creative right and designing creative specifically for CTV, you think that’s a big important thing people should be looking at?
David: I think video ads have changed, right? So, you know, we’re not seeing some geezer try and sell us a BMW anymore in the same way that we used to. We’re now seeing families engage with a BMW and, you know, love the brand and be delighted and have a better life because of it. So this kind of change in marketing is the right thing, I think, personally. CTV gives you a huge opportunity to do that at a much, much lower cost than going to a TV channel or linear TV as it used to be. So more brands have the ability to engage, which is exciting. And the creative layer is a much cheaper and easier thing to produce than it once was. And there are more interesting, creative opportunities in the world, better thinking around how you produce a video ad, to engage socially with an audience rather than… None of us like to be sold to, do we? We hate the idea of being sold to. Up until we’ve been convinced in our own heads that we want to buy something, and then we really want to be sold to. And that’s the key now, I think, to good online marketing.
Mike: Sounds interesting. I mean, you’ve just mentioned nobody wants to be sold to, so I’ve got to ask you, what’s your marketing strategy for Limelight? How do you sell the product?
David: I think we’re very lucky as a company in many different aspects, but this is one of the areas which is so truly fortunate. We aren’t, by taking on more clients, we don’t create competition between our clients, which is a fantastic thing. So we found for four years, in fact, that our marketing strategy existed of doing good work and getting recommendations and then also seeing who our partners are trading with and approaching them because they’re potential clients. So for four years, really, we didn’t have to market ourselves particularly other than look at our business and grow with the people that we were touching within the product. Last year in particular, we changed dramatically and we decided that we needed to look at ourselves as a brand and a formula. You know, we were no longer three people in, you know, working from home. We were now 30 people across the world and we should do something about being a brand ourselves. And I’ve been involved in those things many times in the past when working for other companies. And I have to tell you, I absolutely hated them. They were awful. You’d sit in the room for two mornings or two afternoons and you’d debate what color, you know, we were going to be or something like that. When I did it for Lime Night, I loved it. It was fantastic. Maybe I just care a bit more or something, I don’t know. But I really loved it. It was really, really engaging.
And actually, we loved it so much, we kind of did it twice. We did it first of all with a set of consultants who came up with really good messaging about, you know, how we differentiate ourselves and stuff like that. We then went out and we hired a head of marketing, and she undoubtedly wanted to review some of it. Of course we expected that, and we did, and we… So we’ve really… I mean, that came from that. That’s how we started. Your question was what we do now for marketing. We’re live on Google. We spend quite a bit of money in Google search, obviously. We’re live on LinkedIn. We spend a decent amount of money there. Those are the two biggest paid channels for us. We’re still receiving a good number of internal referrals, and it’s always the strongest lead when it comes from an internal referral. And so we concentrate on doing good work, getting those referrals. And then our sales team has grown to the point now where we have people that can spend energy and time engaging on a one-to-one basis with people on LinkedIn and various other platforms where we can find their contact details. I don’t think any one of those channels really stands out as the channel of success for us. The whole package is really important. And coming out of the shadows, so to speak, last year and spending a good amount of money on marketing has been revolutionary to the business. We are signing clients at about 10 times the rate that we were up until the beginning of last year.
Mike: That sounds great. I love the way that you look at marketing as being something holistic. Lots of things working together. I think people often try to simplify it with, this is the best, the magic bullet. And it never quite works like that, does it? Yeah.
David: Being an ad tech business, we obviously want to make what we do in terms of spending on marketing fairly measurable. We love measuring data. And I can tell you that every time we measure anything, we can never see anything that comes from one single touch point. It just never happens. There’s no magic bullet. They’ve found an ad of ours on LinkedIn, seen a story, seen a social post or something like that, and then they’ve asked someone they know that uses the platform and got a referral via there. Or the referral comes after we’ve hit them a few times on search. There’s always some sort of triangulation. It’s never a silver bullet. And I just think that’s always been the case anyway, to be honest.
Mike: Yeah, I agree. I think it’s just more obvious. This has been really interesting, and I think we’ve covered a lot, David. There’s a couple of questions we normally like to ask people. Before I do, I did hear that there’s a good story around the actual formation and starting of limelight. So I’ve got to ask you, tell us a bit more about that. So I think the story you’re talking about is hot tub to FinTech, right?
David: So when I decided to take my glorious summer off, I bought myself a new hot tub and I was in my garden. It was a glorious summer as well. I was sitting there feeling very, very good about myself. And I’m about five days into my summer off. And my phone rings, and it’s my now business partner, my then good friend, James McDonald. And James and I had known each other since the first days I entered digital in 2007. And we’d gone our separate ways over the years, but always hung out. And when James rings, it’s always entertaining, at least, and factual, and very good at most of the time. So I thought, well, OK, I’ll take James’s call. So James came up with the one phrase during this call that would have got me out of my hot tub and got me back to work. He said, Dave, I need your help. I’m working on a fintech project. So I’m like, God, yeah, fintech. And it was, you know, this is, so this is five, 10 years ago now, 10 years ago. And then, if you remember, fintech was the buzzword. Everybody wanted to be in fintech. I wanted to be in fintech. I didn’t want to be in my hot tub anymore. So I said, OK, James, I’ll come and get involved. So what I didn’t know at that point in time is that when he said fintech, he actually meant a Finnish company with some technology. He didn’t mean financial technology at all.
But nevertheless, we spent some years hanging out. And what we did was really, really interesting to me, is I spent a lot of time working with him, talking to various different businesses, understanding what drove them. And many of them have been in business for many, many, many years. And I understood the epiphany moment that made us create Limelight was that I think I’d wanted for many years to find the next best greatest thing for ad tech. And that’s really hard to do. And when you do find it, often you fail because nobody else agrees with you. What I realized, the epiphany moment was that actually building a better product to service these clients that we’ve been working for as consultants was a much, much smarter thing to do than try and find something that nobody wanted yet. build something that they do want and do it really well and service them really well and keep giving them the consultancy and advice and support that we had been giving them as paid consultants via the software as well. So that’s the story of how we started Limelight and why we’re here today.
Mike: That’s fantastic. I love that. So, I mean, our last two questions. The first thing I want to ask you is, if you’re talking to a young person starting in marketing, what advice would you give them other than, of course, buy a hot tub?
David: Yeah, hot tubs, I think they’ve probably come a couple of years into the career. Authenticity, I think, is the important thing. It’s not just marketing. I think, actually, any young person studying any career, I think it’s really important to be authentic and to continue to do and drive in the direction that you believe in. Too often, I think, we lose 20 years of our career by toeing the line and not being authentic and not believing strongly enough to actually find the role that allows us to do what we want to do. And I think 20 years lost, you can look back and think, OK, well, there were lessons learned in this and the other. But then if you could use those 20 years again, what glorious things you could do. Authenticity and sticking to your dreams, I think would be the advice I would give.
Mike: I love that. And then the second question we like to ask is, what’s the best advice that somebody’s given to you about marketing? Hire a professional.
David: Truly, hiring Savina, our marketing director, hiring a highly qualified professional marketing director to manage that side of our business, revolutionized where we are in terms of B2B marketing and acquiring new clients. Absolutely incredible. It’s very recent advice because, you know, we were limping along and James and I were managing marketing, but hiring a professional completely revolutionized things.
Mike: Fantastic. I think that’s great advice. I mean, this has been a great interview, David. It’s been a really quick overview of the world of programmatic, but I think you’ve covered an awful lot. I mean, if people want to learn more about Limelight or maybe get in contact with you, what’s the best place to go?
David: Websites, limelight.inc. Get us there. You can find us on LinkedIn, various other socials as well. Easy to get hold of. Thank you, David. I really appreciate your time. Mikey, it’s been a great pleasure. A lot of fun. Thank you. Thank you.
Mike: Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes or on your favorite podcast application. If you’d like to know more, please visit our website at napierb2b.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.
