In this podcast episode, we interview Jeff Coyle, Co-Founder and Chief Strategy Officer at MarketMuse, an AI-powered platform which removes manual intervention by identifying content quality issues and accelerating the research, creation and optimisation process.

Jeff explains what it means to publish fearlessly and how MarketMuse brings content confidence and the assurance that it will have a predictable and meaningful impact on the business.

He also shares the two most common editorial mistakes he sees with content marketing, and how MarketMuse’s insight is data-driven to support all teams within the creative, content writing and marketing departments.

Listen to the podcast now via the links below:

Transcript: Interview with Jeff Coyle – MarketMuse

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Jeff Coyle

Mike: Thanks for listening to marketing b2b Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in b2b marketing today. Welcome to marketing b2b technology, the podcast from Napier. Today I’m joined by Jeff Coyle. Jeff is the co-founder and chief strategy officer of a company called MarketMuse. Welcome to the podcast. Jeff.

Jeff: Thanks for having me. I look forward to the discussion today.

Mike: It’s great to have you on now. I mean, just to start off, you’re now working at MarketMuse, a marketing technology company, but you’ve got a really interesting career history. So tell us how you ended up CO founding MarketMuse?

Jeff: Yeah, sure. So the short version is gonna be a seven hour version or a one minute version. So I went to Georgia Tech in Atlanta for computer science usability theory was a focus and information retrieval search engine design, I started working for a company while I was still in school, while still in college as an intern called Knowledge storm, and what knowledge storm was like one of the first companies selling leads to b2b technology company.

So we’re trying to convince companies like IBM, and Dow and Oracle to have content and get it out there so that it could generate leads. I know, this seems like so wild that we were, you know, convincing people to list information about their products, their b2b tech products, all the modules or their products and their white papers and their ebooks and such. So what I did there, as I made sure we had tonnes of traffic going through the site, I got into kind of the search engine optimization world very early on in the 99 2000 range.

So now I’ve been doing it about 23 years, we were generating millions and millions of leads per month for business technology companies. And I also did product management, I helped design, the lead management platform, the lead nurturing solution, the ad server, all kinds of stuff like that. So I love all anything that relates to taxonomies ad serving search engines, and internet search, Enterprise Search, whatever it may be, I love it. So then, like we got acquired in 2007, by tech target, who if you’re in b2b Tech, you’re probably familiar with them. They’re one of the largest publishers in certainly in the United States, but they also own computer weekly, and a number of properties throughout the world, in Europe and in Asia, I worked as their traffic search and engagement vice president. So basically, I was making sure all of their properties got traffic, and we were turning it into whatever it was, you know, readership, membership leads, data. On the cool thing about this story and why it matters to MarketMuse is, it was my first experience working with a large content team. So they had 300, editors, you know, award winning amazing editors and experts. And they also had writers kind of 1000 content contributors from throughout, you know, whether they were outsourced or whether they were like friends and family kind of stuff. And so I had gotten used to optimising sites and planning what content to put on pages, you know, without editorial oversight, and seeing how smart and intelligent those folks were. But they weren’t necessarily using data to drive those decisions. It was all because they were subject matter experts. And they knew editorial and editorial processes. So bringing data to those folks was, you know, initially hard, right? It was like us, here’s us some data’s like, now I don’t know if I want to use data. This seems like it’s all art. And then over time, merging together the art of being an expert. And the knowledge one has an editorial excellence, and search engine optimization, trend information, but also topic information became something that allowed us to build out processes. Now, the punchline there is they were all manual. Like, you know, we were talking about right before the show very manual processes for research for gap analysis for editorial research. And still today, writers and editors. And journalists do a lot of their research manually.

I found at the tail end of my time at techtarget. I found my co founder, he had taken one research process which we referenced as topic modelling. It’s a branch of artificial intelligence that looks to say, if I were an expert, and I were covering this topic comprehensively, what are the things that I would naturally include? And let’s turn that into a graph or a knowledge graph or some sort of, you know, information architecture to say, this is what it means to be about that. Right. And he had taken a 30 hour manual resource search process down to about four minutes, and I went, oh, boy, right. And it was the outcome was better than what I would be able to do. And I was frankly, doing it better than anyone in you know, 2007 to 2011 1213, whatever. And so when I left tech target to go work at a private equity firm, he reached out to me and said, Hey, Jeff If you really understand these processes and how you would turn a bill into a law, effectively, how do you turn this topic model into a thing that can analyse a page into something that can analyse a collection of pages, or kind of the gold coin, which is analysed my entire site tells me where I have strengths and weaknesses tell me where I have gaps and opportunities from the lens of quality, because quality, comprehensiveness, and authority. That’s the unifying metric for anyone on any team. So if I’m an editor, or lead from a GM, if I’m a writer, if I’m a search engine optimization professional, you can’t not want the highest quality content, you can’t not want momentum and authority so that you can write stuff and it can be successful. So it became this unifying metric that allowed us to build technology that crossed the chasm and broke silos at b2b organisations than we realise that publishers and agencies and E commerce all had the same challenges in that they, you know, they don’t know what to write, they don’t know what to update, because they might kind of know, but they can’t back it up with data, so they can’t get enough budget. So they do kind of get half as much budget as they need to write about a, they might spend too much money writing about B, they can’t predict the outcomes. And so they’re just grossly inefficient. And so what we did was we turned all of those problems that every single person that cares about content has into easy to understand workflows that allow your content team to be predictable, and that’s critical. So we can basically say, hey, person, you run a ball bearing company for railroads in Eastern Europe, okay, cool. Here’s the way that you can own, you know, railroad safety in your market, you have to write 140 articles on there about these topics, and you have to update these 15. And if you do that, in this timeframe, we predict that you’re gonna have these types of outcomes. And that breaks people’s brains. They’re just like, yeah, so that’s kind of been my journey from college to, you know, working with teams to become more data driven from a content perspective.

Mike: Presumably, when you talk about quality, you talk about outcomes today, a lot of it is around SEO, and where you rank on the search results pages.

Jeff: Yep. Yeah, absolutely quality comprehensiveness. Google has always cared about content quality, I love how people are saying, Oh, they now care about content, they always have, they’ve always wanted to bring the best results. The first time this was exhibited in their kind of public outputs was in around 2009, through 11, when they released a algorithm update called Panda, which is made by a guy named Navneet. Panda, it just happens to be visualised as a panda bear. But it’s not like it was called that because of that, but basically, that was trying to bring machine learning to assess content quality, and then they’ve just improved on that. But they also have to look at it from how to process queries, how to rewrite queries, how to organise data, in data structures, so their goal has always been that even from the start, they just have to, you know, figure it out along the way, as well as much as anyone else has. But now really, they’ve put that into overdrive, because it’s because of the ability and the advancements in the technology, they’re able to assess quality much more comprehensively, much more well, and they’re able to update, update things more quickly.

So it gives the perception that it’s a higher level of focus for them, it’s just they have a better ability to actually do it. Um, so how that’s manifested is, you can’t trick them. Right? And that you shouldn’t have ever been tricking them if you had a real company, and desired longevity. But now it’s, you know, it’s one of those things where the risk that it creates is too high to even think about it. Especially if you have no real business. So if you have a search engine optimization firm, or an in house person who’s advising things that you know, JDL or they just don’t smell, right, it’s probably because it’s a bad idea. And you should be thinking about quality and comprehensiveness, the funds, the fun side effect is that it’s such a unifier, right, a product marketing person, and editor, editorial person, your C suite, your writers, everybody wants to be presenting the company in the best possible light. We want content out there that people are gonna go to and go yeah, this is awesome. This really represents us as thought leaders. So it has meaningful impact on virality on brand on, you know, and then just kind of team unification. So yes, sure, it leads to higher rankings. But what it also does the meaningful impact that it has to build credibility for writing content, the content marketing team believe management team and the search team is really a measurable it makes teams go from kind of siloed, ineffective, inefficient kind of lobbying for budget to all being unified around one metric and that metric is quality and authority.

Mike: That’s interesting. I mean, one of the things that intrigued me is on the website, you know, you obviously talk about quality too well, authority, but you have a tagline about publishing fearlessly. What do you mean by publishing fearlessly?

Jeff: I’ve never been asked that question. That’s a really good one. So what do I mean? Why? I’m gonna flip it around, right? Why would one fear a particular writing or content investment? Right? The reasons why one would fear that there is because it’s completely unpredictable. So I always ask people, the first thing you need to do before you invest any more money in context, stop. Don’t listen to me. pause the tape. Don’t pause this tape. But go look in the mirror at your existing site, not bias, not a funhouse mirror. How much content do you produce? How much content have you produced? How much of it how what percentage of it is successful? Then you do the math, and you’re like, oh, only like 10%? Or I don’t even know, right? The average on b2b teams is typically about 10%. That’s painful. So now asked the same question, how much does each content item cost? All in? Not just how much? Did the writer charge you? If you’re outsourcing? What’s the total only cost? Right? Do that math, you’ll figure out that each page is going to be in the 1000s of dollars. And you say no, it’s not Yes, trust me, if you bet, if you bank all the hours and look at it, especially if it’s something that is excuse relatively high quality, it’s going to end up being in that four digits or more. Well, now, think about that, if you’re only producing 10% effective, it actually 10x Is your costs. Right? If I knew that, I would be in fear, right? If every article was called if every effective article cost me 20 $30,000, which isn’t unusual for a b2b technology company, right? Gosh, I really have to be sure of myself, before I invest that I can lie to myself and say the content cost a couple $100. Right. But even then, I’m fearful that I’m going to get budget to do this, and then it’s not going to be successful.

So will MarketMuse brings you is the content confidence to say, I know that if I write this article, if I update these articles, they’re going to have a meaningful impact on my business that I can predict. And then I’m comfortable that I’m going to go back. And it’s going to have that meaningful closed loop. So I can go back to the C suite, or my you know, cmo and say, Hey, I made the case to build 10 articles about this topic. We wrote them, they all done well, or 40% of them and done well. Previously, only 10% of our content did well. That’s what publishing fearlessly means.

Mike: That’s, that’s fascinating. That level of competence and level of, I think just honesty with yourself about costs is really important.

Jeff: I’ve got an example that you can everyone who’s listening to this can go look up. Alright, so I was on a podcast, I do a lot of podcasts and webinars. I was on a podcast in January, where I was actually looking at MarketMuse, the platform at the market Muse account, the one that my content strategist, my lead content strategist, Steven Chesky, who’s amazing uses to decide what we write in what we update, and I was using it as an example. And I said, Well, you know, Steven wrote this great article, that’s early stage awareness about content briefs, it’s what is the content brief? Market Muse surfaced that it had a intent mismatch, and but it was appearing in organic search results for a content brief templates and content, brief examples. Right. But we weren’t really ranking very well. If you went to the page, there were no brief. There were no templates or examples. Right? So it surfaced that, hey, if we were to go attack, content, brief templates and content, brief examples, we would have noticeable competitive advantage and authority. So I was in this I was on this podcast and recording and I said, well, I need to go Estelle tell Steven to go write those articles. He did. They’ll type in content brief template into Google. Right now, I don’t even know you might be listening to this seven months from now, three months from now, the page that Steven wrote, he confidently published and it overtime, barreled through the results in order to perform well.

That’s the kind of experience that I want your team to have, where you can say, whew, this is going to be a big lift. I was just talking to a b2b tech company. And they were changing focus. They’re changing what they focused on. They’re all about this one topic. They want to be about this other topic. They even went out and bought another company to be more about this other concept. And they’re like, We have no idea how much content we need to produce on site a in order to own this topic. And I’m like, Whoa, okay, you got a migration to do and you’re not sure. That’s going to be you know, a big effort. And we can quantify that And we showed them there the data and it said, you know, yeah, you’re gonna have to build a collection of content. That’s pretty significant. Are you guys comfortable with that investment? There? We’re like, Oh, it’s a little bit more than we expected. But it’s, it’s real nice to have that documented, right? And I said, there is a wild card here, migrations throw a little bit of variability here. But, and that’s not there’s a little bit of unpredictability, and which I don’t like Jeff doesn’t like unpredictability. But yeah, that’s the kind of thing that we like, is cases where you make a decision for the why I have a slide in one of my decks that says we’re the why for content, right? Why am I writing this article versus that article? If you can’t answer that you shouldn’t ever write.

Mike: Makes absolute sense. So in terms of the product, you know, are you really focusing on the content strategist, Content Manager kind of persona? Or is it something that’s used by writers as well?

Jeff: What a great question. Both. So it’s a for the premium offering, it’s definitely a team sale and a team target. So the content manager, the content strategist, the CMO, they’re a decision making organisation, they decide what to create, and what to update. So for them, the value is the decision making the content inventory and auditing on demand, and being confident in, you know, giving orders and building plans, right? Because if they will build a plan that’s not successful, you know, yeah, all downstream is going to hurt. Just imagine you republishing and only 10% of the articles that you wrote, were successful, right? What if you turn that into 20%, or 40%, I’ve got teams operating more than 50%. After working with us, which just imagine that world, the impact downstream is insane. I mean, the the value that that brings, but then we take it a step further, we know that there is content operations, dysfunction. So we allow teams to build content briefs, either with our platform, or as a managed service. They have complex brief requirements. What that does is it creates a single source of truth for writers, or, you know, editors, or search engine optimization professionals. So I say, hey, go write an article about coffee cups. A lot of times, that’s what manifests as a proposal today. And so that’s not enough, the person who gets that thing is good, maybe they’ll have a bunch of questions, or they’ll write something. And then the editor looks at it, the developmental editor, if you have a developmental editor, and they’ll look at and going, Wow, this isn’t what we wanted. So they mark it up with red pen, figuratively or literally, then they give it back. And then there’s trust breakdowns, and then that’s a disaster, right? So we always recommend, get a content briefing process that isn’t just focused on SEO make it like, so that there’s collaboration, information about questions to answer, make sure there’s room for the writer to use their expertise. That’s what you’re paying them for to build a narrative. You can give them outline recommendations, title, recommendations, ways to differentiate questions answered, like I mentioned topics to include, so that they don’t have any blind spots. So we provide all of that, and then allow you to customise that depending on your level of sophistication. And then we have a set of applications that are mapped to common workflows, right? So I want to examine a page and make it better, how do I make it better from a lens of quality? That’s one of our applications? What is the competitive landscape look like? How can I make sure that my page is differentiated from my competitors? This page needs some internal links. Can I have some recommendations for internal links to put in this? This page needs to answer more questions? What questions should I consider? So common workflows? So that would be for the writer or for the SEO, and then the decision maker that’s more for the premium solution. So a common makeup of using MarketMuse is going to have one to five people using the decision making capabilities. And the brief ordering, which is called inventory. And then maybe 1015 20 writers and SEO is using the applications.

Mike: Yeah, and I found it really interesting, because when I looked at marketing, and I mean, just so people know, you know, we went to look at marketing news, I ended up signing up and going down the rabbit hole of getting really excited about the whole product. But it seems that effectively what MarketMuse is trying to do is take all the bits that people are doing manually and not doing very well because they’re doing it manually, and taking that pain away and automating it and it really seems like you’ve looked at where the pain points are in terms of content generation and try to automate that pain away as much as possible. Was that a deliberate approach?

Jeff:  Absolutely.

It is. That’s my dream. My dream is that editors will be able to focus on the things that they’re good at and not have to do the things that they shouldn’t have to do or the things that they’re bad at. And writers should be able to have more time writing and less time doing things they shouldn’t. SEOs will have an easier time giving advice that can be heard. SEO is common pain. As they give information, and nobody can understand what they’re giving them, right, because it doesn’t translate into the way that editors think, or the way that writers think. Right? And I use the I always use the analogy of. So you’re a chef. Oh, great. Can you farm? Right? That’s one of my favourites. Right. And so a lot of times, hey, you’re a writer. Oh, so you’re good at SEO? Why would we expect that or you’re an editorial person, that means you’re really good at keyword research? No, those are learned skills, it’s like saying Are you’re an SEO. So that means you’re good at pay per click, or you understand how ad servers work, or you understand information retrieval, right. So obviously, I’ve spent my entire career 23 years being able to do all of the things because I don’t like the concept of a T shaped marketer, I always tell my teams, don’t be a T be a square, because I want you to know everything about everything. And get there by the time you’re done working here. So you can go be a CMO or VP somewhere else. But if you haven’t done that, right, it’s not fair to take somebody who’s written for 20 years in print and digital combined and say, okay, so you’re an SEO? Like, I don’t think that’s fair. At one point in my career, like in 2005, I thought every writer should be an SEO, I’m like, why wouldn’t you want to be? Now I’ve realised, you know, you grow up, you realise, you get empathy. You’re like, wait a second, an editorial expert who like, knows everything there is to know about, you know, hard drives? Well, how would I expect them to care about this? Right, I’ve got to give them this information. So yes, the dream is to take all those workflows that have any pain, any manual process, and automate the stuff that doesn’t allow for expertise to shine, I want the editor to be sitting there, like I’m the most valuable person in this organisation, the subject matter expert, I understand how the stuff in my brain is going to add value for the business through content. And if I can achieve that within an organisation, then we got something I want to turn your writers into people that feel appreciated, and that they’ve got time to write. They want to spend time doing SEO, whatever that might be.

Mike: I think a lot of writers would love to hear that. I mean, maybe you could just perhaps, you know, delve down into a little bit more detail on, you know, when it comes to a writer trying to generate some content that’s that’s optimised, you know, what do you do to take that SEO pain away from the writer?

Jeff:  Absolutely. So first of all, it’s that single source of truth, right? So and I’ll tell you, I’ll tell the story two ways. One is the actual process. And then one’s the, the faulty processes, right? The actual process is to say, the person who’s asking me to write this, how much trust are they putting into me as a writer, I need that to come through. So the person has a goal when they give a request to write. So it may be I want to own this topic. And maybe I want to rank for these things, I want to generate traffic, or they have no goal, okay, that’s a big red flag, you need a goal with the content item. But so they’re saying, I want you to go write an article that tells the story of do it yourself home ownership expertise, and explains to somebody how to get bees out of their garage? All right. That’s kind of a thesis.

In order to tell that story. Here’s questions that you’ll need to answer. Here’s topics that you definitely want to cover. Here’s internal and external linking recommendations. Here’s some points of reference from competition. Here’s some subsections. Because this is kind of like your general guidelines. And we need it to be and it’s going to probably yield over 1000 words, because that’s roughly how much it would logically take. And here’s some points, additional points of competitive reference. That’s all I want to give the writer because I want to trust that they are going to know this or be able to get the basis their go write this, I want them to spend their time. Okay, so what’s the beautiful narrative here? What imagery do we need? What production value is expected? Here? I want to make sure this has a flow a developmental flow, and communicates and answers those questions. Well, now, that’s a big difference than if I just send them hey, go write an article about how to get these at a garage. That’s it. Oh, right. They could put anything together. It could be two paragraphs. It can be 1000 paragraphs, it could be 10,000 words. That’s a pain point. The other one would be if I just said, Hey, go write the article. And then they wrote it, and then I put it through some other sort of flow to optimise it, and SEO edit, right? Well, what if I wanted the person that’s doing that marks it up in a way that negatively impacts the narrative, right, or decreases production value, or just like causes conflict? So if the writer has As that upfront, it’s highly unlikely that that SEO edit has to be all that significant. And that creates a really great bond. And trust improves the trust with the writers versus the editors, makes them more likely to work together.

So the SEO edit is something that you really want to examine if you aren’t doing it, especially if it’s a developmental edit where you’re actually, and I keep saying that, but it means like, you’re actually changing the flow structure, tone voice, the actual like, frame of the pay of the article or the narrative, you’re actually providing insights, you miss a section you, you didn’t mention this concept. Those are things that are common in editorial operations. So then the other thing is where you might think that this type of technology will race you to the end faster. So like, I want to go from proposal to, you know, content quick, right? Yeah. Okay, as long as it checks off, all checks off all the boxes, and it’s extremely high quality in the end, and everybody is confident that that works. But it’s not necessarily the goal, to do anything that’s going to jeopardise quality. So the process that is followed, no matter what needs to do that, what I commonly see now are races to the end, you the end yields low quality. And then the process of optimising or improving that low quality draft. Oh, it just is painful. Nobody really gets it. The end product isn’t as good as it would have been if you built it incrementally. And there’s a lot of chaos included. So I advise, I highly advise against that race to the end and modify. And I highly advise against not putting yourself in the situation where the SEO edit is extremely light. Those are two common editorial mistakes.

Mike: Interesting. I mean, I think one of the other things is typically in this classic approach where people are basically using judgement is very subjective. You know, you talked a little bit about using data being data driven. Can you explain how MarketMuse is data driven?

Jeff: Sure. So I like to think about as three scopes, right page level groups of pages, and then site or network level, page level data driven, we’re able to analyse any topic, right? And we don’t just look at like, the number one ranking page or the top five or the top 10, to say, like, what are they doing copy off of them, because that’s, first of all, terrible. Nobody likes doing that. It doesn’t work. In practice. Sometimes it works and allows you to spike but then you crash later, for a lot of reasons. There’s five reasons that can happen. I won’t get into them. But I will get into detail but one of them is don’t copy your idols don’t do what Amazon’s doing. Don’t do what the most powerful publishers in the world are doing if you’re not at the most powerful publisher. Last some really sophisticated teams are, know how powerful they are. And they’ll throw herrings out there for people to latch on to that some super meta stuff. So yeah, don’t don’t copy your idols is a core issue if you go copied Amazon S pages because Amazon S pages are outperforming you dig a hole crawl in and call me from the bunker three months from now. And by the way still happens me people with FBA sites are made for Amazon. A sites are literally going to major e commerce brands or Amazon S category page or search results and like trying to emulate those strategies, and then they three months later are wondering why their traffic crashed. Because of the Google product update. It’s like Yo, you you didn’t do anything that you were supposed to you thought you were because you got this nice shot of adrenaline. But it didn’t work. Same thing though.

In b2b, the people are gonna copy, don’t copy Capterra, please don’t copy techtarget it’s not gonna work out for you. I know, because I manage the entire met and tech target network. So trust me. So the I got so off onto a tangent there. But the framing back to the question, we go out to the web, instead of looking at just your competitor, we go out to the web, we and we learn about the topic, right? So we learn about everything we could possibly learn about this concept. So we might look at 10s of 1000s of pages, hundreds of 1000s of pages, we might look at existing knowledge data that we have, in order to build a topic model or a knowledge graph that says if you knew everything there was to know about Boston Terrier dogs, you would also know a bunch of stuff about these other dogs. You would also know that Boston Terriers are a bracket acephalic breed means they’ve smashed faces and and you would have coverage of that in this article. You would also then at the sight section level, you would have knowledge of other breeds and probably have other brachiocephalic breeds. And then let’s go holistically, one level up. You’d have this much breadth of coverage, this much depth for coverage, this many items that are exhibiting high quality and expertise about dogs, right? And so we can tell you that at the page level, site section or site level that weaves together a narrative about where you are today, where you have gaps, where you should be focused on how easy or hard is that going to be to get to the next level with content. So how do we use data topic modelling, we can build those topics we can also, we are the only in market application that can emulate topic authoritative miscalculations. So we can actually say how authoritative your entire site is on any concept. So we can say, you are an expert in multifactor authentication. Hooray, go write everything you can. And that’s kind of the story is why we use data. And we don’t just tell people how to do things everybody else is doing. We also tell you how to differentiate your content. And that’s something that only you can do. If you really have true knowledge. Because you you only have true knowledge, you can tell someone how to be like everyone else and how to differentiate. If you only know how to copycat, you can only tell people how to copycat. That’s a critical critical aspect of marketing tech.

Mike: I just love that. Because that’s, that’s providing so much assistance to content teams. But still, it’s placing those writers at the centre and using their creativity and encouraging something new rather than something bland, which I think is so nice.

Jeff:  It’s my thing. I love it when the writer recognises that this is their, this are guardrails. But if they do something magical, like if I can do have five hours to spend, and they can spend four of those five hours, like thinking about something super cool and creative, because we took away four hours that they would have been spending doing yucky stuff and research. Like, I like that’s what gets me out of bed in the morning. Like I’m like, Yeah, you did it right, or they have five hours, and they were able to put out one good article last year, at this time. Now they can put out four in those five hours because they just have this like super fast process. And like no matter whether it’s that they are able to be creative with that time, or they’re able to get more done. And they’re doing it confidently. Like, that’s, that’s the dream, right? And that’s and ask anyone if this isn’t just me throwing smoke, like, that’s what I want to hear that is so magical for me to have gone in 20 years. And you know, I’m not a writer, you know, I’m, I’m the guy with the blue stuff in my brain that talks in my head content strategist records our conversations and turns it into beautiful articles, like I can’t sit down and write it, I just have too much passion for getting it getting the information out there. It’s real hard for me to write. I use other processes. But no matter what the process you go through is I wanted to be faster. And I want the outputs and the outcomes to rule the day, not the process.

Mike: That’s That sounds great. I mean, just looking at this, you’ve talked a lot about your focus on content teams, large organisations. I mean, does this mean that MarketMuse is something that really is only accessible to large enterprises?

Jeff: Well, we have multiple products. So we have a free product. And then we have a standard offering, which is for individuals and small teams that is currently being rebuilt so that it’s much more accessible for the individual writer or SEO. So that’s going to launch around this summer, a relaunch of the summer, and be at an easy to access price point. Our premium offering is definitely a team offering. That is where you are going to need to have somebody who wants to use data to make content decisions, you are going to want to be adopting a briefing process. And you’re probably going to want to have two to three or more people who are touching content within your organisation to be able to justify the return on investment. But we have single one person solopreneurs with multiple sites who are our best users of our premium product. It’s just being confident enough to make such such an investment in content. And it’s really also like I tell everybody, like if you want if you think this is about cutting corners or checking Google like go go use another software platform, I would much rather you use something else. People don’t really understand that. But I’ve learned that you’re not going to be a good customer anyway, if you think you’re going to trick trick the search engines like it’s just not going to work out for you to use this go find something that’s 4495 that cheats and and like, go do that. And then like a year later, when things don’t work out for you. Find me at a conference cry on my shoulder and then I’ll tell you what you should be doing and honestly that happens a lot. And so Okay, because cheating is time correlative as John Woo from Google, anti spam team, written in the book, the beauty of mathematics and computer science, one of my favourite books, which you should read, he wrote, I’m paraphrasing, but cheating is time correlative. If you’re cheating on, if you’re cheating in the search on the search engines, they’re gonna find you, it’s just a matter of time. And if there’s software that’s giving you insights, that aren’t leading to content quality, and they’re leading to manipulation, cool, all right, talk to me next month, might not happen next month, talk to me next year. And you’ll realise that, you know, if you’re self aware that what you’re doing isn’t focused on things that are going to make all boats rise, you might have hurt your brand. And what I want for you is what your cmo likely wants for their company, regardless of what role level, etc, that you’re playing.

Mike: Such a positive message I’m aware of, you know, we’re running out of time here. So I’m sure people would have loads of questions. I still have questions for you to be honest. But if people want to get ahold of you and find out more about market muse or have something specific, what’s the best way to

Jeff: I’m uncomfortably accessible jeffrey_coyle on Twitter? Like, you know, follow, I’ll follow back and we can DM for sure. jeff@marketmuse.com on LinkedIn, as long as your LinkedIn messages, don’t say, Hey, I love that you do software development and have company I got what they wanted to say, I love that you have company in software development. I’m like, wow, yeah, you are definitely a bot.

As long as you actually wrote a note, maybe reference the podcast or reference, something like that. Shoot me a note on LinkedIn, shoot me an email, I respond to everything. I’m so passionate about this stuff and but also, go check out our webinars link on the top of market Muse got about 100 Content Strategy webinars there. And whatever you’re interested in, I probably have done a webinar about it. And then also just, you know, typing into Google or YouTube, Jeff Coyle podcasts, you can find hundreds of recordings of me talking about something that you’re probably interested in, and then reach out, give me some feedback.

Mike: That’s awesome. Thank you so much, Jeff. This has been so interesting, I’m sure. So helpful to a lot of our listeners who are trying to generate some content thanks so much. I really appreciate it.

Jeff:  And this is my favourite discussion in a really long time. And I’m gonna be downloading this recording and like shooting it around our whole work like hey, listen to this. This was a great interview. And I love what you got y’all are doing. I think that your target with your group is is special. I had the opportunity to speak with you. I actually responded to my, my head of marketing. I was like, Oh, I like what they’re doing gay. I’ll do that. So I was already familiar with some of the work that you’ve been doing, and I really appreciate it. So

Mike: that’s awesome. That’s very cool. Thanks so much.

Thanks so much for listening to marketing b2b Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes, or on your favourite podcast application. If you’d like to know more, please visit our website at Napier b2b dot com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

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