Author: Natasha Websdale

Building Relationships in Digital PR - Vince Nero - BuzzStream

Vince Nero, Director of Content Marketing at BuzzStream discusses the changing landscape of digital PR and SEO. Learn how BuzzStream helps marketers build strong relationships with journalists and navigate the evolving landscape of digital outreach.

Vince discusses the importance of personalization in email marketing, the impact of recent Google updates on SEO strategies, and the shift towards quality-driven digital PR.

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About BuzzStream

BuzzStream is an email outreach tool for PRs and link builders designed to help build and manage relationships with personalized outreach at scale.

About Vince Nero

Vince is the Director of Content Marketing at Buzzstream. He thinks content marketers should solve for users, not just Google. He also loves finding creative content online. His previous work includes content marketing agency Siege Media for six years, Homebuyer.com, and The Grit Group. Outside of work, you can catch Vince running, playing with his two kids, enjoying some video games, or watching Phillies baseball.

Time Stamps

00:00:18 - Guest Introduction: Vince Nero from BuzzStream
00:03:09 - Understanding BuzzStream's Value for Marketers
00:10:09 - Impact of Google Updates on Marketing Strategies
00:14:23 - Marketing to Two Distinct Audiences: SEO vs. PR
00:19:11 - The Future of Content Marketing and Technology
00:24:00 - Creating New Information: Strategies for Success
00:27:04 - Quality Over Quantity: A Key Marketing Principle
00:27:23 - Best Marketing Advice: Permission Marketing
00:28:20 - Advice for Aspiring Marketers: Seek Internships
00:29:58 - How to Connect with Vince and BuzzStream

Quotes

"There's kind of this thought process in the digital PR space and link building space that is kind of at odds with one another.” Vince Nero, Director of Content Marketing at BuzzStream.

“The recipe for success going forward is pushing as much of your own new information into these large language models.” Vince Nero, Director of Content Marketing at BuzzStream.

“I think we're just finding more and more that people are needing this personalized approach.” Vince Nero, Director of Content Marketing at BuzzStream.

Follow Vince:

Vince Nero on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vinnero/

BuzzStream website: https://www.buzzstream.com/

BuzzStream on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/buzzstream/

Follow Mike:

Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/

Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/

Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.

Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Transcript: Interview with Vince Nero at BuzzStream

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Vince Nero

Mike:
Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today. Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today, I'm joined by Vince Nero. Vince is the Director of Content Marketing at BuzzStream. Welcome to the podcast, Vince.

Vince: Hey, Mike. Thanks so much for having me.

Mike: Great to have you on. What we like to do with all guests is get you to tell us a little bit about your career and ultimately why you've chosen BuzzStream as your current company. So tell us all about yourself.

Vince: Yeah, I don't want to go back too far, but I actually started when I was in music school. I played the saxophone, tried to make a living as a jazz musician in New York City and found it pretty tough. So I needed to get an actual job and I kind of fell backwards into marketing. Started working with some like the tech in the tech startup space in New York City Gained a lot of connections there and was I kind of able to leverage that into a job with a small consulting firm That actually paid for a course for me called SEO that works. It was a Brian Dean backlink Oh course this was back in like 2014 or something in 2013 and And so I took that course and kind of used that and the stuff I learned there to get a job with Siege Media. And I moved out to San Diego to kind of join up with them. And that's kind of where I cut my teeth, really. And what I do now, I think, is where I learned SEO. I had a great mentor, Ross Hudgens, there, and some other folks at Siege who are great, Alex Hines, Carolyn Gilbert. And so, you know, while I was at Siege, it was content marketing agency focused on SEO. They did digital PR, that sort of thing. And I used BuzzStream the whole time I was there. Eventually, my wife and I had a kid during the pandemic. I was kind of just not feeling the agency life. I wanted a little bit of a change. And I ended up moving out of agency in-house at a company called Homebuyer, then was laid off from there, started another agency, and then ultimately BuzzStream reached out to me and it seemed like a perfect fit given my interests and what they do and my affinity for the The product itself, you know, I really liked it and I had actually, funnily enough, reached out to them when I was leaving Siege Media saying like, hey, this seems like it would be the perfect fit. Are you interested in me at all? And they weren't ready to hire a marketer yet, but eventually they were and I jumped at the chance.

Mike: And you're now based in Connecticut, is that right?

Vince: Yes. Yeah. So I've kind of jumped coasts back and forth.

Mike: You couldn't stand the fantastic winters in San Diego.

Vince: Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty rough. I needed, I needed the cold again.

Mike: Well, that's awesome. I mean, it's great that you, you know, come from a background of using a product and then wanting to actually work for the company. You're probably ideally placed then to explain, you know, the problems that Buzzstream solves for marketers.

Vince: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I, it was a really kind of another reason I felt like a perfect fit for this because I was, I am the ideal customer, you know, like the problems that Buzzstream solves are kind of twofold. It acts as kind of like a CRM for, um, digital PRs, essentially. So it lets you personalize emails, but then send them at scale to, you know, actually move the needle. But I think the main focus is on being able to kind of build relationships with journalists and publications. So that seems to be kind of the bigger issue that a lot of people have and there's kind of this thought process in the digital PR space and link building space that is kind of at odds with one another where it's like they call it like the spray and pray technique versus the, you know, personalized sniper tag, you know, if you want to keep using that weird terminology. So, you know, it's like, do I personalize emails or do I just send to a mass list, basically? And so the challenge is doing that at scale. And, you know, I think the agency life, any agency, especially that's doing link building, wants to scale everything, right? Like you're very conscious of the time spent on different tasks. Everything has to be built to a client. It kind of behooves you to work as quickly as possible, but you do that and sometimes it's sacrifice the quality of the emails, you sacrifice building relationships. So there's some agencies that don't like to personalize emails and get into it and build relationships and would rather kind of send out you know, 5,000, 10,000 emails, something like that, just get a list of relevant journalists. But I think we're just finding more and more that people are needing this personalized approach. And there's a couple things that have happened in the past year that have really made me kind of strengthen that argument, I think, and I can get into that. But that's it in a nutshell, I think.

Mike: Well, I mean, let's get into that. Let's find out about those things that have really made you buy into BuzzStream.

Vince: Yeah, I mean, our customer base is kind of split, right? So we have people who are into link building and using it for link building, doing kind of more traditional link building outreach, your maybe resource page building or broken link building, niche edits, link insertions, guest posting outreach. The other half are digital PRs. So it's like that is the two customer segments. I think we're kind of 50-50 when you talk about UK versus the US. And that's interesting there because like the US itself is kind of a few years behind, I think, the UK market in terms of how they think about digital PR. It's kind of tied more into link building and thought of more as a scalable approach, whereas I think a lot of the UK agencies do put more focus on personalization and building relationships more in the vein of like a traditional PR. So, with kind of that in mind, it is kind of like this interesting segmentation of our market, but throw Google into the mix now. In the past year, they've done a handful of very interesting things, and I think, to me, it's really pushing everything towards this almost like more traditional and like brand building focus that marketers should have. So one of them was in February, they put out these new email requirements to kind of cut down on spam emails. So these unpersonalized emails that you get from people and you know, it's like people that send out more than 5,000 emails in a 24-hour period to personal email addresses have to adhere to these stricter guidelines. Like, you know, you need to have that auto-subscribe button in the subject line there. There's certain details that you need and technical things. At its core, what it's doing is pushing people to send more personal emails, right? So, like, that's number one tick towards the personalized and relationship building. The other is there was this massive Google leak, and in it we found a lot of signals that the brand itself, I think, seems to be something that Google looks at more so than people thought, I think. So mentions of a brand, authors affiliated with a brand. The other side of that is there were signals in there that talked about how sites that were updated frequently and had sections that were highly clicked. those links from those sections are potentially more valuable to Google. And those types of sites are inherently just like news sites, the sites that you would get from doing PR work, right? The last thing I'll mention is the helpful content update, I think. And kind of in that is the link spam update. I'll kind of roll those two together. But What we saw from that was a lot of sites basically just dropped off traffic like completely or, you know, were completely decimated, maybe not entirely dropped all their traffic. But the sites that I saw that were most impacted by this were the sites that were basically just spinning out content just to spin out content. They had no real identity. They had no real focus. It were really just these mean like guest posting sites where people would go on and post an article about whatever you'd see. They're kind of like veiled news sites, but not really news sites. They just cover every topic under the sun. But I think those links used to work, and I don't think they are anymore because we're seeing the traffic really going down in those sites. So with those kind of three, well I didn't mention the link spam update, that's kind of tied into that like helpful content thing because what our analysis showed, my analysis showed recently of a lot of those sites that got hit were again like those were sites that didn't really have any core focus or had no like real brand identity and were basically the sites that you would see that were constantly in link exchanges and on these guest posting sites and accepting guest posts or you'd see them on these guest posting databases. So what all that kind of amounts to is this kind of push away from those more traditional link building methods the guest posting, link exchanges, link insertions. Not to say that they don't work, but not at the scale that people used to do it. And on the other side, there's this real focus from Google on like, brand, being an authentic brand, mentioning the brand, seeing mentions of a brand. And kind of to do that, you need to really focus on high-end authoritative news sites and getting coverage there. So that becomes more of the digital PR route. I mean, you can conceivably buy links from those sites, those news sites, but I don't think they're necessarily worth as much as if you were to reach out to a journalist and really cultivate a nice relationship that you can get links for your client or multiple clients if you have an agency. That kind of stuff gets me excited, obviously. I can talk a whole podcast about this and where things are moving. I didn't even mention the impact of AI on this stuff, but I've changed my whole marketing plan because of the tumultuous year that we've had, I think, in Google updates and all these things, those four or five things I just mentioned, that have really caused me to change our focus and lean more heavily into digital PR topics versus covering those more traditional link building type of topics.

Mike: So, I mean, that's interesting. And I think it kind of says to me that, you know, some of the perhaps, I guess, more straightforward SEO tactics are moving into the, you know, more quality orientated digital PR. So do you want to talk a little bit about how BuzzStream helps you get covered in those, you know, higher value publications? Because obviously that's not an easy thing to do.

Vince: Yeah, and you know, I think we do. You still need to be a great PR to get the most out of BuzzStream. I mean, what BuzzStream does is enable you to send and kind of cultivate these relationships. Like I said, you know, when I worked at Siege Media, we use BuzzStream, and kind of the biggest thing was you create a piece of content, you want to build links to it, get coverage for it. So you're reaching out to journalists, finding journalists. BuzzStream does help you find journalists and find contact information for journalists, but it's not necessarily a media database. So you do have to kind of do your own digging and do your own validating to make sure that these journalists are relevant. And that's why I say you do kind of have to be a good PR to to pull that in. But what you get into with BuzzStream is then, okay, now I have my list of people and I can easily kind of personalize each of the emails much more quickly. And then the other end of it is also being able to lean on those repeat journalists and build relationships. So you have the contact history, you can see, oh, this person covered me on a campaign I did two months ago. I'm going to reach back out to them, and you already have a foot in the door because they covered you. Or maybe they rejected you, but they said, you know, contact me again. And it's like, oh, yeah, I have this. relationship with a journalist. I think what a lot of people do these days in PR is they have their kind of top priority list of journalists that they'll reach out to for every single campaign. And, you know, being able to identify those priority journalists for different industries, especially when you're at an agency and you're working in different industries all the time, different clients, or you might even have different people working on different clients at different times. You have that full visibility, and that's where I think the extreme value is, and just being able to kind of have that visibility and then being able to personalize based off of that.

Mike: I love it. I mean, you've alluded to the fact you've really got two sorts of customers a couple of times here. You've got the SEO side of your business, and you've got the digital PR pros. I mean, how do you approach marketing when you've got two different audiences like that?

Vince: Yeah, it's tough. I mean, you know, I was thinking about our newsletter, like I started a newsletter. That was one of the things we did. And I have a great, you know, our editor, our CMO, Stephen Panico, is great at kind of pushing me to focus all my pieces. What's the value here? What's the, you know, the UVP and everything. And one of the things we were struggling with was like, what's the value of this newsletter? What makes it different than, than all the other newsletters? So what I ended up coming down to was like, we kind of bridged that gap between PR and SEO because that is kind of my background, the SEO background with, you know, that's more digital PR. But I think That's kind of how I have to go about doing it is like tell both sides of the story. Right. But like I said, I am making a concerted effort nowadays to go more for the topics and keywords that have to do with. more traditional PR. Just, you know, we're working on a product that's right now a new feature that's kind of more in the traditional space, traditional PR space anyway. So kind of trying to set us up for that. But, you know, it's not to say that like SEO and the link building side is completely forgotten. I mean, I think it's still important to address how those still work, you know, like in their limited capacity, and then also how they can play into the broader kind of brand, the idea of a brand. So I think it's kind of pushing that messaging and kind of doing what I can to tie those two together wherever possible.

Mike: That's interesting, because as a B2B marketer, you seem very focused on building the BuzzStream brand itself. And obviously, you're doing some SEO whilst you do that. But how do you balance the requirement of getting that strong brand, but at the same time, driving some of those bottom of the funnel leads?

Vince: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, tactically, one of the first things I did, and I used to do all the time when I was at the agency, is we'd create these keyword lists. and balance them out based off of like where they appear in the funnel. So I think it's always important to have that mindset of like, you know, this is bottom funnel, this is middle funnel, this is top funnel. And What we would do is like we would use a metric from Ahrefs called traffic value. And so you look at the top ranking posts and see what kind of estimated traffic value they had. The traffic value came from like a PPC calculation. So based on that thought process of like using PPC to guide the value, Typically, the higher value keywords were also kind of more bottom funnel, right? Because those are the keywords that are getting clicked on. They're valuable for people for other sites. So we would use this and do the traffic value divided by the keyword difficulty. So if it's a really difficult keyword, But it's got a lot of traffic value, you know, like maybe we go after that. So it becomes kind of just this this math equation. And I have this whole sheet and I'm actually working on a case study right now for like my last year of where I walk through my exact keyword research process. And I can share that with with you, Mike. But I think it is kind of having that balance, right? Like, for me, if I'm working in a SaaS company, realistically, it's like you want to start with the bottom funnel. And that was what I did. Digital PR tools, email outreach tools, content marketing tools, like these types of posts that people are going to look at before wanting to purchase, right? I wanted to make sure I at least had those shored up before moving up the funnel. Then it became like, you know, you kind of said this earlier, but like, I think there's ways to achieve that brand awareness along with other goals. It's not just like, I'm going to raise my brand awareness. It's like, how am I going to do that? Can I create a post that is going to generate backlinks is going to generate a lot of social shares is going to generate. So I always kind of have that in mind of like, if I'm doing this, is there a way that I can leverage this post in a couple different ways for, you know, not only leads, but also the brand. Can I interview someone to get some quotes behind this? And then that becomes something I can use in social posts or something. So I think it's about kind of having that mindset of like, how can I get multi uses out of all the content that you do?

Mike: Yeah, I love that. I mean, you know, a lot of people talk about content reuse, but I love that concept of being able to use that same blog post to achieve two goals. I think that's a really interesting idea. I just want to switch gears a bit and talk, you know, maybe about things, you know, at a higher level now, more generally in terms of marketing. There's been a lot of change in technology. How do you see that impacting content marketing? And what should content marketers be doing to remain effective and successful over the next five years?

Vince: Well, if things change as rapidly as they did in the last year, for the next five years, it's going to be a very different landscape. But it's interesting. I just read something last week or earlier on. I'm trying to remember where I read this. Basically I said this idea that like chat GPT and AI, like obviously they're the biggest things when you ask that question, Mike, like that's the first thing that popped out is like, you know, AI and how that is going to impact everything. That's where my mind goes. I mean, the other things are probably what like the department of justice is going to do to Google here in the, in the States and how that's going to impact SEO and But for now, let's talk AI, because I think what the thing that I read was basically that like AI is getting to a point where it's like it's getting harder and harder for them to kind of iterate and get better. And I think one of the reasons they said in this article was because they're running out of new information to train on. Right. So there's only so much information out there and that makes up this kind of corpus of information and this large language model that they're pulling from. So I think. What's going to happen in the next few years is just, you know, it's going to almost become like SEO, but for AI, right? Like SEO, AI, whatever you want to call it, AI optimization, where the game is going to be how do you show up in these large language models and The thing that a lot of people talk about is information gain and all of your content. And I think this, this is what I do now and what people should be doing is thinking about how I can always be inserting something new, never just saying something that is already out there and reiterating. So like if you're looking at it from a keywords perspective, like there's going to be keywords out there that AI is going to be able to answer easily. That's going to drive people to do their research on AI. And then when they come to your site, they're going to be more primed to buy. They're going to have all that kind of top level information they're going to need. So with information gain, you want to constantly be feeding new information where that kind of plays into relating it back to like digital PR. And it is this idea of like, data-driven content, whatever you can do to put fresh proprietary data. It doesn't necessarily have to be data. I guess it could also be like expert opinions and quotes from people who are experts. And this is why Google is pushing so much on people might have heard of like the EEAT, experience, authority, expertise, and trust. Google wants that from the content. They don't want you to just regurgitate stuff that already exists out there. So I think the recipe for success going forward is pushing as much of your own new information into these large language models and trying to associate your brand with those as well. So if I'm saying, you know, BuzzStream email outreach tool found whatever XYZ statistic, like that, as many times as I can associate my name with those things, I want people to find BuzzStream, you know, like a email outreach tool, digital PR tool, whatever. that's going to just potentially make me show up more in the large language model. So it's a long way of saying I think the future is going to be optimizing for those. And I think the way to do it is to provide new information that doesn't exist and only you have, only your brand has.

Mike: I love that. I mean, that's quite intimidating as a challenge to keep finding new information, but I think it's something where we can all be optimistic that we can keep adding value and keep winning against AI, which I think for particularly brands and not the market leaders, it sometimes feels quite hard to break through, doesn't it, in an AI model.

Vince: I kind of disagree. Well, let's just say I disagree. Like, I don't think it should be intimidating. And here's why. Because I think there's a couple easy things that any brand can do. And when I talk to journalists, one of the things I always ask them is, if I'm a brand new brand, right? Do you even care about hearing from me? Do you look for the bigger brands when you're sourcing a story? And at the end of the day, the story is what drives any journalist to talk about something. So it doesn't really seem to matter. There are definitely certain industries that might be tough to find compelling stories for, but you just kind of have to shift your mindset. Even with us in digital PR right now, like for BuzzStream, there are so many key players right now in this space. It's like, I can't put out a survey that appeals to like a general audience. I need to put out a survey or data study. I need to put something out that relates to our specific audience. So what I'm doing is this like state of digital PR big study where it's like, you know, I'm creating this data myself by just surveying other expert individuals in the space. So I think really any industry can do that type of survey. It just becomes kind of, you know, you're maybe not to your first question or earlier question of like it, maybe it's not going to be a lead generator for you, but it's going to become like a thought. leadership play, more of a brand play, which isn't always bad. Like I said, it's always important to have that balance of those two things. And sorry, I kind of buried the lead there. The way to actually create this new information, surveys are an easy way that anybody can do it, I think. Getting proprietary data is another one. I think the other one is just gathering expert opinions from thought leaders at your company. that to me is proprietary information. It's maybe not data, but that's proprietary information that doesn't exist anywhere else. So you might be an expert on something very specific, even if you work in whatever construction or something that's like a really, you know, I remember working on like surety bonds here in the States when I was agency and that was really tough. But like there's going to come a time when a journalist needs to know about that. It's just you might have to change your expectations a little bit. It's like you're not going to go out and build a hundred links, get coverage, you know, a hundred different places. But in some of these smaller industries, like think about it from this vantage point, there's probably not a lot of players in these niche industries. So you don't need as much to stand out as well. You know, and think about from the large language model perspective, it's like, again, if you're in a niche industry, there's not going to be probably a ton of information about that. So I think it's doable for pretty much anybody. It's just, yeah, maybe the expectations of those like quality over quantity, I think, is the conversation you have to have then.

Mike: That seems to be a message of the podcast is quality over quantity is what really matters today. Yeah. Vincent has been really interesting. We'd like to finish with a couple of quick fire questions. So first thing I want to ask you is what's the best bit of marketing advice you've ever been given? And I'm not going to let you say quality over quantity.

Vince: You know, I think back to one of the first books I ever read in marketing, it was Seth Godin, Permission Marketing. And just this idea of like, you know, a person's inbox is so important to them, they need to give you permission to interrupt them, right? So like, what value are you going to give them? so that they will give you the permission to interrupt their inbox, their flow, their whatever. I mean, it was written years ago, but I think it really still applies today, and especially in the space that I'm in. But like, you know, I think about all the newsletters. I feel like email newsletters are such a big brand play these days, big marketing play, that it's still 1,000% relevant.

Mike: I love it. That's great. I remember reading that book when it came out as well. The second question we want to ask you is, what advice would you give to somebody who's starting marketing as their career?

Vince: I think as much as I like that course I took, there are so many courses out there to give you bare bones of something, but I wouldn't rely on that 100%. I would try to either build something yourself, which is not always realistic because it takes a lot of time and money and I've been in those places. I think the better play is to try to get a paid internship at an agency because you're going to get exposed to so much stuff and try to find somebody there, a mentor that you can pick their brain and even if it's an unpaid internship and you're in school or something, you're going to get out of it what you bring into it. So like ask as many questions as possible. It's like, you know, they're not going to fire you if you're an unpaid internship, right? So like you should be trying to get invited to meetings, client meetings, ideation meetings. Even if your job is getting coffee, it's like try to insert yourself in as much as possible. Just be a sponge. That's what's really going to make all the difference, I think.

Mike: That's great advice. I mean, at Napier, we're very keen on getting people in. We always pay our interns. And also, in the UK, we have this apprenticeship scheme, which is amazing for marketing. So if anybody is starting their career, please do contact me, and we'd be more than happy to take you on in the UK. Vince, this has been, you know, fascinating. I'm sure people would, you know, probably love some more information, you know, maybe about you, maybe about, you know, finding out more about BuzzStream. So how can people get some more information if they want to contact you and find out more?

Vince: Yeah, I'm very active on LinkedIn. I just got on Blue Sky. So check me out there on either of those. I would say subscribe to our email newsletter. It's something I spend a lot of time, too. We also have a podcast. But yeah, LinkedIn. And like Mike said, if you're new and thinking of internship or just thinking of getting into the industry, my chats are always open. Feel free to reach out. I'm happy to, like, schedule a call and chat through that kind of stuff too. So very open to helping.

Mike: That's very kind. I really appreciate it. I know people who are starting would appreciate that as well. Vince, it's been fascinating. And thank you so much for being a guest on the podcast.

Vince: Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Mike. And I really appreciate the time and the chat.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes or on your favorite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at napierb2b.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

by Natasha Websdale

Lead Generation: The Power of Quiz Marketing - Maxwell Nee - ScoreApp

Maxwell Nee, Chief Revenue Officer at ScoreApp, joins Mike to discuss quiz marketing and how businesses can engage potential customers through interactive quizzes that not only entertain but also provide valuable insights into their needs.

Maxwell shares his thoughts on the evolving marketing landscape and emphasizes the importance of personal connections, as audiences increasingly seek authenticity and transparency from the brands they engage with.

• ‎Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
• Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
• Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com

About ScoreApp

ScoreApp is a lead generation and customer engagement platform that helps businesses create interactive scorecards to capture valuable data, qualify leads, and personalize user experiences. By using tailored assessments, businesses can gather insights about their audience, streamline onboarding processes, and enhance marketing strategies. This data-driven approach empowers businesses to convert leads into loyal customers effectively. ScoreApp is widely used across various industries, including coaching, finance, and fitness, to boost engagement and drive results

About Maxwell Nee

Maxwell Nee is the Chief Revenue Officer of Scoreapp, a Quiz Marketing Platform with 6,800 paying clients. He's also a multi-award winning entrepreneur, bodybuilder & dancer. He’s been featured in TV, Radio, Forbes, Singapore’s The Business Times & The Australian Business Review.

Time Stamps

00:00:42 - Maxwell Nee's Career Journey
00:01:43 - What is ScoreApp?
00:02:23 - Quiz Marketing Explained
00:06:17 - Setting Up a Campaign with ScoreApp
00:09:41 - Balancing Brand and Lead Generation
00:12:04 - Future of Marketing Tools
00:12:57 - The Importance of Personal Connections
00:17:06 - Actionable Advice for Quiz Marketing
00:18:42 - Key Marketing Advice
00:20:46 - Advice for Young Marketers
00:21:55 - Contact Information and Book Reminder

Quotes

"I totally burnt out, realized I hated it, couldn't be an employee anymore, and jumped into the self-employed world." Maxwell Nee, Chief Revenue Officer at ScoreApp

"It uses quiz marketing. So uses the engagement of filling out like a quiz or like a personal assessment." Maxwell Nee, Chief Revenue Officer at ScoreApp

"Our internal mantra is that we're here to force our customers to be successful." Maxwell Nee, Chief Revenue Officer at ScoreApp

Follow Maxwell:

Maxwell Nee on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maxwellnee/

ScoreApp website: https://www.scoreapp.com/

ScoreApp on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/scoreapp/

Follow Mike:

Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/

Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/

Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.

Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Transcript: Interview with Maxwell Nee at ScoreApp

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Maxwell Nee

Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today.

Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. I'm Mike Maynard, and today I'm joined by Maxwell Nee, who's the Chief Revenue Officer at ScoreApp. Welcome to the podcast, Maxwell.

Max: Hey, Mike. Thank you so much for having me.

Mike: Well, it's great to have you on. I mean, the first thing we'd like to do is let you tell us a bit about your career and how you've got into the role that you're currently holding.

Max: Yeah, good question. So I started off my career in corporate banking for Australia's largest bank, and then totally burnt out, realized I hated it, couldn't be an employee anymore, and jumped into the self-employed world. Started off by launching a digital marketing agency that then evolved into an online education business where we were selling online courses. And, you know, Score app was actually one of the tools that we used to use to help generate leads and sales for our business. So one thing led to another. I invested in the company, you know, was a bit like of a strategic advisor, you know, making introductions to the company. And then most recently came on to the team to help us scale. I live in Singapore, but to help us scale around this area, Asia Pacific.

Mike: Interesting. So, I mean, I think the first question I really need to ask is, you know, what does ScoreApp do? Can you explain what the product offers people?

Max: Yeah, great. So it helps small, big, any size type of business collect data and generate highly qualified leads. So it's a lead generation tool that you can use to generate leads for a personal trainer, for a big enterprise company, for an accounting firm, financial services, all that type of stuff.

Mike: I mean, I've had a play with it. I love the way it works. You know, basically, it does it by doing these rate my activity, whatever it is. So, you know, whether it's looking at energy efficiency for potential enterprise customers or fitness for a personal trainer, I mean, it really is a simple quiz with a ranking at the end. Is that a good summary?

Max: Yeah, so it's a, it uses quiz marketing. So uses the engagement of filling out like a quiz or like a personal assessment. So like a very, very common one is like, find out which Hollywood movie star, your personality is most like, right? Which ones most you that pulls people in because there's a lot of curiosity, there's a lot of intrigue, there's a little bit of vanity. So you know, if you're that person, who am I, right? So there's like a self identification process. And so we offer all of your clients that engaging process for them to become a highly qualified lead for you.

Mike: But as I understand, it doesn't have to be pure fun, you can actually help people assess where they are with, you know, for example, particular processes, Napier could assess, you know, how well potential clients are doing marketing, and then use that to not only drive leads, but also, you know, initiate that discussion. Is that right?

Max: Yeah, 100%. So there's a few different use cases. One use case is using it for lead generation and sales. We have one client testimonial who is a personal branding expert. And branding is, as you would know, a very intangible thing. You can't just walk around saying, oh, your brand is crap because it's a very subjective thing. But she's found a way to help people measure the effectiveness of their personal brand so that she could then go help them. And that's her lead generation and sales tool. And then you've got people that use it as a customer progress thing. So if you work with your customers or your clients, say over a 12-month period, you might give them an assessment at the beginning, middle, and end to track their progress as they move through their work with you.

Mike: That sounds great. I mean, I love that idea of quiz marketing. I've not heard that term before. And I think it's interesting. I think a lot of people, and particularly our clients in the enterprise space, it's harder and harder to do the classic content marketing, offering a white paper behind the registration wall. It sounds like this is a, you know, not necessarily a new approach, but certainly a different approach that could be quite intriguing and also quite fresh from the point of view of prospects.

Max: Yeah, it's, you know, we had one person that was doing something very similar in the States, and we've recently acquired them. So as a result of that, and even before that, there's not many people doing quiz marketing and offering it as a service so other people can use it as well. So it is refreshing, it is unique, and it is, you know, quite special.

Mike: So in terms of actually using the product, I mean, is it a complicated thing or do you literally, you know, just come up with a set of questions and score them? I mean, how does it work?

Max: Yeah, so it used to be quite complicated. You know, the average time it would take someone about a day and a half. That's a bit like setting up a new website, playing around with all the buttons, tools, moving things around, colors, fonts, and all that type of stuff. But now we have plugged in an AI wizard that you just answer a quiz and the AI wizard takes your answers, then comes back and writes six or seven hours of copywriting and writes a whole marketing campaign for you. Now, that's like having your first draft of your assignment, you know, university assignment written for you, then you should go back in there and polish it up.

Mike: And you said there's a broad range. So, you know, I mean, a lot of the people listening to this enterprise marketers in the B2B tech space, you know, presumably, you can offer functionality that large enterprises can't build easily on their website.

Max: Yeah, well, we can, you know, and we're very nimble, nimble, fast, and it's so cheap for what it does. You know, there's there's a free version. There's £29 a month, £59. I think it goes up to about £99 by the end of it. Right. So there's there's really an option for everyone. You could step your way into it as well.

Mike: And can you just walk me through, I mean, what someone might do? I mean, let's say they're trying to build a campaign. What would be the process and how straightforward is it using ScoreApp?

Max: It's just like setting up a Facebook profile, you know, Facebook profile, LinkedIn profile, a website for the first time. You create an account, you jump in, you could use AI wizard or you could set it up yourself. Either way, if you get stuck, our head of customer success in the UK, she does a session every Tuesday, where she sits on Zoom, helps people five to one, 10 to one, sometimes one to one, and helps you to get set up. So, you know, our internal mantra is that we're here to force our customers to be successful. So we're really leaving nothing off the table.

Mike: I love that. That's a great approach. I think there's a lot of customers that love to be forced to be successful.

Max: Yeah, exactly. Right. And especially, I think it's also quite refreshing in the enterprise, you know, software world, right? Because it's very rare, you might get to talk to someone on a zoom call, it's very rare, you get to see the face of someone, you know, on a chat on a webinar or whatever. But we're doing webinars for new existing clients every other week. And plus, we have the setup and score webinar every week.

Mike: One thing I'm interested in is the promotion of these tools. I mean, we see, you know, these kind of quizzes a lot on social. Is social the most effective way or do you see clients or customers of yours, you know, promoting through email or other channels?

Max: I get, you know, this question is more about, you know, what's your business model? You know, is your business model trying to appeal to the masses? Then yeah, you know, the masses aren't social. But if your business model is a little bit more laser focus, you know, one to one type of thing, then that's also very, very, you know, powerful as well. So I'll give you an example. Really high-end personal trainers use their own quiz funnel where, for example, they'll take you in. You say, hey, look, here are my fitness goals. They'll take you in into a body scanning thing, which is basically a quiz funnel, right? And then that body scan will give you a result, and then they'll sit there and work out a really tailored plan for you. And that's very, very one-to-one and high-touch, right? They don't give out the free scans to everyone. Where you promote it comes back to where's your audience? You know, where's your clients? Where's your target audience?

Mike: That makes a lot of sense. And I think, you know, let's switch gears and talk about how you're promoting a score out now. So I guess quiz marketing is one of the ways you're doing this, but can you talk about what your marketing strategy is for score out?

Max: Yeah, so we have a few, right? So we're very effective on YouTube. You know, we've got a lot of YouTube videos that the views on all of them, like the minutes that people are watching them and getting value out of them is compounding, you know, every month, growing by, you know, say 2 to 5% every single month. And then, you know, we've obviously got written articles, because this product is very educational. And we have this book The founder's written a book called Scorecard Marketing and it breaks down why this works, how it works, the psychology of it. So if you're into marketing psychology, it's a great read. And then it gets into the tangibles of what you need to do to make this thing go.

Mike: Awesome. That's really interesting. It sounds like you're actually striking quite a big balance. You're a product that fundamentally is a lead gen product. But it sounds like a lot of what you're doing is around building the brand. So you're getting that balance between brand and lead gen. Is that your goal? Is that what you're trying to achieve?

Max: Yeah, so let me share with you our brand guidelines, you know, like our values and that type of thing. So it's three words. The first word is elegant. The next word is powerful. And the third word is fun. So we want everything we do to be elegant, powerful and fun, you know, so elegant in the terms of Yeah, we want an ecosystem of our brand and our service and everything else. We want to be on YouTube. We want to be on podcasts. We want to be on LinkedIn. We want to be face to face. I'm going to be bringing the brand to the world's largest affiliate marketing conference in Bangkok next weekend. So we want to be at physical events as well. We want to be doing our own events. So, because our product has so many clients, more than 6,500 clients, I picture it as like a waterfall. And then you have the water dripping down into the correct places, right?

Mike: And that's interesting. I mean, you talk about clients and the way you're dripping them down as a waterfall. But I think one of the interesting things is, fundamentally, you're a B2B product. You're selling to other businesses. But your pricing is certainly not at the level that a lot of enterprise products are. So do you think, you know, your approach is somewhat B2C in the way you approach people? Are you seeing people, you know, bringing in ScoreApp into an enterprise almost without permission?

Max: Yeah, you could say that, you know, the vast majority, I'd say at least 90% of our clients make less than half a million dollars a year. Right. So that's, you know, just how the numbers have landed the threshold. You know, it is a very dynamic and malleable tool. It's a bit like, you know, MailChimp or like an email database tool. You know, who can use that? A mom and dad can use that. If you're selling cookies, you could use that, you know, HubSpot can use that, right, or Salesforce. Our tool is a little bit like that. It's up and down the ladder.

Mike: And I think it's interesting as well. I mean, not only is there a trend to kind of treat this B2B sales process a little bit more like B2C, but also I think in B2B customers are spending less time, you know, talking to salespeople, more time doing their own research. And that seems to be driving a big uptake in SaaS tools like ScoreApp. I mean, do you think, you know, your sales process really is taking advantage of the fact that people quite like self-serve today?

Max: I think that people want a choice, to be honest. We have a lot of clients that come in and they say, who could I pay to just set this up for me and I'll pay the money to be able to pick up the phone and talk to someone. So I think that people always have their personal preferences. Me personally, I'm a bit more of a who can I pay type of guy. As long as the price isn't unreasonable, I'm always happy to pay more but just take the problem away because I want to move on to the next thing. Right. So I think that you want to be able to cater to you want to have a service offering that's like, you know, low, medium and high range. Right.

Mike: And do you see those low, medium, high range, do you see them almost stretching across the customers? So any size customer could pick any one of those three options, or are you thinking more like small business, medium business, and enterprise?

Max: No, no, 100%. I think even a small business might just say, I'd rather just pay someone to take this off my hands type of thing. And a big business might say, we'd rather just do it ourselves, right? So it really just comes down to personal preference.

Mike: That makes a lot of sense. One interesting thing, I mean, obviously, you know, you're part of this technical change we're seeing in marketing. I mean, the rise of MarTech has been phenomenal. What do you see happening over the next five years in terms of marketing tools? And how is that going to change the role of people that are, you know, actually leading marketing organizations?

Max: I think that we all know where it's going. It's going to this almost dystopian, ultra-digital, ultra-personalized… What's the most effective? The most effective is when I log into Amazon.com, and you log into Amazon.com, we both see completely different websites because it's got 10 years of your buying history, 10 years of my buying history, and our buying histories are different. So it's ultra personalized and that's the most effective because they want to get as many sales out of me as possible and so they should. So they want to personalize my experience. So that's one element. Ultra personalization, AI doing a lot of the administrative heavy lifting, we all already know that's coming. It's actually been here for a while. What I do think that people don't really have an eye on is Donald Trump just won the election, right? And he won it by less than 5 million votes. A few days before voting, like the week before voting week, he was on a few key podcasts, including the Joe Rogan podcast, which got 50 million views within 72 hours, just unheard of. And not a lot of those were from America, but you could say and you could infer that the marketing of the presidential election was swayed. was swayed by one podcast, which is a free piece of media, not controlled by a news corporation, but controlled by just some entrepreneur. How crazy is that? And then if you go deeper into how that works and why it works so well, I think that a lot of people like, yeah, you can watch Donald Trump go at it with Kamala Harris at the debates. Or you could sit there and watch Joe Rogan connect with him as a human being and get to know who the guy actually really is out of the hot spotlights and out of the rehearsed question and answering. I think that's totally underrated.

Mike: I mean, that's fascinating. That again is, you know, to some extent looking at the, if you like the consumerization of B2B marketing, you know, it's becoming, I think if you extend the analogy to B2B, it's important that you get to know the personalities in your supplier and building those relationships, even their parasocial relationships. I think what you're saying is going to be more and more important. Is that right?

Max: Yes, I think that the numbers, those numbers I just shared about Donald Trump winning the election, prove that if the world's making a big purchasing decision, like the decision of who's going to be president, they want to know who that person is, what are they like, outside of all the rehearsed questions and answers. And wouldn't you? Wouldn't I? I do. So that's one example of a purchasing decision. I think that filters down to all purchasing decisions. If someone is buying an enterprise SaaS thing, they want to know, okay, what type of company is this? Is this a company that doesn't care about their carbon footprint? Is it making an effort? Is it a company that's leading that space? It's not. Is it a company that has equal employment rights? It's not. Who's the CEO? Is there a company that represents that they care a lot about this stuff, but the CEO actually doesn't? I think people want to know that stuff and there's not enough urgency on that stuff really matters. It's not nice to have, it matters now and people care about it now and Donald Trump demonstrated that.

Mike: And again, I think that applies to a lot of B2B companies that think it's purely the specs of their product that matter, where actually there's a lot more behind that. I mean, Max, this has been really interesting. One of the things we'd like to do is give listeners something, you know, actionable they can take away. So I'd like to ask you, you know, a couple of questions to get your advice. I mean, the first question I've got to ask is if you're thinking about doing a quiz marketing program, I mean, what would be your advice to create a really effective quiz marketing program?

Max: Well, I can give you something. So this book, Scorecard Marketing, if you go to scoreapp.com forward slash book, we'll get you out a physical copy whilst we can. If you live in the UK, we can. We definitely can. If not, you get a PDF. So that book is a real deeper dive. And some people like to get very technical, really like to understand what's underneath the surface. So that helps you to get what's underneath the surface as to why it works, how it works, and how you can execute it the best way possible. And then, yeah, you know, jump on one of our weekly, bi-weekly webinars so that you can start to see, you know, why we've got, you know, more than 6,500 clients that are winning with this thing. And we know that because they're high paying and long term clients.

Mike: Awesome. No, I think that's good advice. And certainly, you know, getting the book seems like a great start. If we look more generally, though, and let's move away just from quiz marketing, to marketing in general, I'm interested, what's the best bit of marketing advice you've ever been given?

Max: Oh, good question. So I think that a lot of businesses, you know, overcomplicate things, or they overestimate things. And what I mean by that is, you know, typically all the answers to how to market your business, what to do and that type of thing, they're already out there. right? And sometimes I think we can get a little bit caught up with trying to find the answer on our own or trying to reinvent the wheel a little bit. When if you just look at some of the big businesses and if you look at them really closely, they found out what works and they do the same thing over and over and over again. I'll give you an example. Apple releases the same products every year. They look a little bit different, there's different colors, but it's the same thing. And everyone knows it's coming, it's no surprise. So there's no need to be constantly painting a new Mona Lisa every year or whatever. It's just repeat what works. And often, you're not special, I'm not special. Our businesses have been invented before, maybe in a different shape. But just take the shape of what worked before and repeat it, repeat it, repeat it. Another example is Tesla. Whenever Elon launches a new product, he does the same thing. He launches a wait list, gets some expression of interest, and I'm sure he takes that expression of interest wait list, then goes to the bank, then gets it funded, then builds it. He doesn't build a million road suits, which none of us have one yet. You know what I mean? And that was launched five years ago. He gets the interest, He gets the waiting list, he gets the deposits, and then he works it out after. And he keeps doing that because it keeps working and it's the smartest way to do it. You know, so there's a, there's a smart way that someone's already figured out how to market your business. So I would just take that and run with it.

Mike: Awesome. I think that's great advice. And then the other question we like to ask for, you know, people who are listening, if they're just starting in their careers is what would be your advice to a young person right at the start of their marketing career?

Max: Oh yeah. I left my corporate life in my mid-twenties and chased the entrepreneurial thing. And I've got all these friends that are multi-millionaires, large numbers in front of me. And they all started five years earlier, six years earlier. And so I wish that I jumped into what I really wanted, which is to be an entrepreneur earlier. And yeah, you know, it's hard to do that if you don't have a mentor, like a lot of them had their dads are entrepreneurs. So that was easier. Mine, mine sort of wasn't right. But I wish I had the foresight to just find one, you know, find a mentor to just stick to, which is a challenger within itself. But at least that that makes the action is clear in that case, right?

Mike: Absolutely. I think that's that's great advice. I mean, go for it, I think is the summary there. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, Max, I really appreciate your time. I know you're busy. I'm sure people will have questions here, either about marketing using Score app or more general marketing questions. What's the best way for people to contact you if they'd like more information? And maybe you can also throw in a reminder of how to get the book as well.

Max: Yeah, so we'd love to get your copy of the book. You know, you can do physical or digital. It's SCOREAPP.com forward slash book. And then if you want to get a hold of me, I'm addicted to LinkedIn. So Maxwell Knee on LinkedIn. You'll get me there.

Mike: Max, thank you so much for being a guest on the podcast. I really appreciate it. It's been fascinating.

Max: Perfect. My pleasure. Thanks, Mike.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes or on your favorite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at napierb2b.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

by Natasha Websdale

Build Trust - The Secret to Closing Sales Effectively - ABB

In this episode of the Marketing B2B Technology podcast, Mike is joined by Sophie Neate, Global Head of Digital Marketing and Content at ABB Electrification. Sophie dives into her career journey and offers a glimpse into the strategies that set ABB apart. She discusses how ABB leverages its strengths across industries to deliver value to a broad audience and how it strategically communicates to different customer segments.

A key focus of the conversation is the buyer’s journey, an important framework Sophie uses to guide potential customers from awareness to decision-making. She discusses her approach to integrating the buyer’s journey into campaign planning, striking a balance between long-term brand building and the immediate priorities of lead generation and sales support.

• Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
• Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
• Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com

About ABB

Building on over 140 years of excellence, our more than 105,000 employees worldwide are committed to delivering on our purpose with innovations that create success for ABB and all our stakeholders. Our solutions connect engineering know-how and software to optimize how things are manufactured, moved, powered and operated. In collaboration with our customers, partners and suppliers, we address the world’s energy challenges, transform industries and embed sustainability in everything we do.

About Sophie Neate

Sophie is a senior marketing leader with over 16 years of experience across the entire marketing cycle. Her background includes working for blue-chip companies on an international scale, where she has held global management roles, currently holding the position of Global Head of Digital Marketing and Content for ABB’s Electrification Service division. She has been responsible for establishing marketing teams and key functions, driving initiatives that have consistently delivered successful outcomes.

With extensive knowledge, capability, and a strategic mindset in marketing, Sophie delivers strong commercial results. Sophie holds a Bachelor of Business Studies (BBS) with a major in Marketing.

 Time Stamps

[00:43:2] – Sophie provides an overview of her career background.

[03:14.6] – Sophie shares insights into what makes ABB unique.

[05:58:7] – Sophie discusses the importance of the buyer’s journey in creating effective marketing campaigns.

[14:26:9] – Sophie explains the marketing tactics that work best in different scenarios.

[18:20:0] – Sophie talks about balancing the immediate demands of lead generation with the long-term goal of building a strong brand reputation.

[21:18:7] – Sophie discusses AI and how she sees her role evolving alongside advancements in AI.

[22:17:2] – Sophie shares the best piece of marketing advice she’s ever received.

[23:17:2] – Sophie offers advice for those just starting their marketing careers.

Quotes

"My passion lies in providing the best customer experience through innovative solutions and working for a company like ABB who pride themselves on this vision." - Sophie Neate, Global Head of Digital Marketing and Content at ABB.

"The buyer's journey for me is crucial in marketing because it maps out the path that a potential customer takes from becoming aware of the problem to making a purchasing decision." - Sophie Neate, Global Head of Digital Marketing and Content at ABB.

"Segmentation and targeting is key... we're able to build trust and credibility, which enables repeat purchasing and ongoing loyalty." - Sophie Neate, Global Head of Digital Marketing and Content at ABB.

Follow Sophie:

Sophie Neate on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sophie-neate-2ba37849/

ABB website: https://global.abb/group/en

ABB on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/abb/posts/?feedView=all

Follow Mike:

Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/

Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/

Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.

Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Transcript: Interview with Sophie Neate at ABB

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Sophie Neate

Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today. Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today I'm joined by Sophie Neate, who's the Global Head of Digital Marketing and Content at ABB.  Welcome to the podcast, Sophie.

Sophie: Thank you, Mike. Nice to be here.

Mike: It's great to have you on. I mean, one of the first things we like to do is just get a bit of background about your career. So, can you tell us about, how you've got to the point where you're now working at ABB?

Sophie: Yeah, no problem. So, I am a senior marketing leader with over 16 years of experience across the entire marketing cycle.  My professional background includes roles with blue chip companies on an international scale where I have held global management positions.  My passion lies in providing the best customer experience through innovative solutions and working for a company like ABB who pride themselves on this vision. So, to answer your question, Mike, I chose to work for ABB for a multitude of reasons, but the main ones being that ABB embodies innovation. Sustainability in a customer focused mindset all while providing opportunities for professional growth.

Mike: And your role is Global Head of Digital Marketing and Content at ABB. You know, ABB, which is a pretty big company, that sounds like a huge role. So, can you tell me a little bit more about what you're doing in your current position?

Sophie: Yeah, no problem. So, as you mentioned, I'm the Global Head of Digital Marketing and Content for ABB Electrification Service. So, one of our divisions which sit in the business area of electrification. So, what my role encompasses is focusing on digital activity, whether that be, I'd say SEO, SEM activities, obviously managing and covering the management of our websites, but then also from a content perspective, making sure that we develop compelling content that's going to resonate for our customers. Now with ABB being in over 100 countries and having over 105 talented employees, it definitely is a big global role, but what we tend to focus on is we produce global content, but then we localize it to reflect on the existing market trends for the relevant regions and countries that we cover.

Mike: And that's interesting. So, you're focused on the, the service part of the electrification business. What are the sort of customers that you're addressing, for that part of ABB?

Sophie: Yeah, so our customers can range from, you know, the maintenance or production manager, plant and facility manager. The procurement manager through to your C suite, so like your CEOs, CFOs, for example, but again, it depends on what marketing activity we are doing and what our overall objective is, I would say.

Mike: Yeah. So presumably that's quite a wide range of, people in the audience. So you're producing quite a lot of different types of content, you know, some for more technical, some for, you know, board level people. Is that right?

Sophie: Correct, correct.

Mike: I mean, obviously we work with ABB, I understand it, but probably some of the listeners are maybe less familiar. So, in terms of the electrification business that you're supporting, what is it that ABB does that's really uniquely brilliant?

Sophie: Yeah, this, this is an easy question to answer here. So, you know, I mentioned before we, um, excel in a vast number of disciplines, but the ones that come to my mind are First and foremost, innovation and automation and electrification. So what this is, is around, you know, we're a global leader in industrial automation and electrification offering solutions, enhanced productivity, efficiency and sustainability for industries like manufacturing, Energy and transportation, you know, expertise in robotics, control systems and digital technology, such as AI IOT helps businesses automate processes and optimize operations. Secondly, sustainability and energy efficiency. So we're known for our commitment to sustainability, providing energy efficient solutions and green technologies, especially in areas like, renewable energy, EVs or electric vehicle infrastructure and smart grids. So our technologies help reduce energy consumptions and emissions, supporting industries and cities and their transitions to become more sustainable operations. a thing I mentioned before, you know, we have a global reach with local expertise. So we operate in over a hundred countries, combining our global scale with deep local expertise. So we have a strong focus on research and development with a significant investment in R& D.  We continue to push the boundaries of technology, as I mentioned before. And finally, or furthermore, we have a comprehensive digital solution offering, which is called ABB Ability, which integrates cloud based technologies and data analytics to help companies monitor and improve their performance. So, these solutions support predictive maintenance, such as, you know, the division I'm in, electrification service, making us a key player in Industry.

Mike: That's, I mean, that's a lot of areas that we're dealing with, so, yeah, it's complicated. I mean, I'm interested, you know, kind of at a high level, what's your strategy to communicate, all these different areas where ABB have something that's really valuable to what is, as we said earlier, quite a broad audience?

Sophie: Yeah, another great question, Mike. So without giving too much away, um, and at a high level, our strategy really focuses on capitalizing on our strengths in technology, like I just mentioned, innovation and sustainability, whilst aligning with market trends and customer needs, all while ensuring we continue to deliver strong commercial results for the business. So that's kind of it in a nutshell.

Mike: Well, I'm going to dig a bit deeper. So, one of the things I do know is that you're a big fan of the buyer's journey as a way to build marketing strategies. So, can you just explain why you think, building and understanding the buyer's journey is so important to generate great marketing campaigns?

Sophie: Yeah, so the buyer's journey for me is crucial in marketing because it maps out the path that a potential customer takes from becoming aware of the problem to making a purchasing decision. So, understanding this journey allows us marketers to Deliver the right message at the right time. And this is where I'd say segmentation and targeting is key here. You know, we're able to build trust and credibility. So that enables repeat purchasing and ongoing loyalty, which is, of course, important, you know, enhancing the customer experience. So creating that customer centricity or delivering that customer centricity, optimizing resources and efforts so you can evolve to market trends over time, because we all know with market trends, they do evolve. And then, of course, increasing conversion rates of your marketing activities so you can deliver ROI. So, if you can't report an ROI, what you're doing is not necessarily the best way to utilize your resources. Um, and then, of course, which is one which I'm constantly, um, I'd say, communicating and emphasizing is the alignment between sales and marketing. So, which is an initiative, as I mentioned, that is part of. We're placing a really big importance on here at ABB. So ultimately for me, the buyer's journey is important because it allows marketers to be more strategic, targeted, and empathetic in the approach, leading to better business outcomes and more satisfied customers, which is our end goal for any business, to be honest.

Mike: I think you've covered a lot there. I mean, there's a lot of, individual points. Do you have like a, an overall strategy or process to actually make use of that buyer's journey when planning campaigns?

Sophie: That's a big question. So, when planning our campaigns, integrating the buyer's journey helps ensure that each stage of the customer decision making process is addressed effectively. So how we do this at ABB, so first we separate our campaigns into awareness and lead generation. So, our communications teams focus on campaigns in the awareness stage, so all around brand and thought leadership. Whereas Lead generation is covered by the marketing team, which focuses around that commercialization. So, you know, for example, an activity, if you were doing awareness, you would, you know, for example, utilize Google display as part of your strategy. Whereas when it comes down to lead generation, we tend to focus more on Google search because we understand that, you know, customers love to do their research before they reach out to us. And in fact, it's proven that, you know, 65. 70 percent of customers, by the time they come to our websites or interact with us, they've already made up their decision by that amount. So, it's really important we, you know, deliver that content that's going to resonate with them and be at the forefront. So secondly, we identify the value proposition and commercial landscape beach campaigns to ensure that we are segmenting our activities effectively. Thus, identifying our target audience and understanding the maturity of our buyers’ market. Because as I mentioned at the start, dependent on our objective of our activity, we need to understand what the target audience is going to be and obviously the maturity of that market. So, a key thing that we also do is before we launch externally, we also launch internally. So, we must get our customer facing teams, such as sales operations, et cetera, to be on board to ensure that we are all aligned and understand.  Because we understand that when we do campaigns, it's a multi touch approach, so they may not, you know, engage with our digital platforms. They may ring up our customer contact center. So, we need to make sure that our customer contact center teams are briefed as well. And so I mentioned with our sales and operation teams. The other thing we do is we implement a multi-channel approach. We also go from, as I mentioned, producing global content, but making sure it's got a local approach. So, we go global, as we like to say. So, we do this to ensure our assets and key messaging, resonates with our audience, which, of course, nurtures leads from marketing, qualified leads to sales, qualified leads, utilizing marketing technologies like we do at ABB. We use Power BI to continuously monitor our performance and adapt where necessary, whether it be on a monthly cadence or quarterly cadence. So, one thing I do also want to state here is that, you know, we at ABB are starting to move away from gating content so we can provide our customers as much information as possible to help them in their decision making phase. So, as I mentioned before, research has shown that by the time customers reach out to us, they've 70 percent made the decision. So, it is our job I believe to give them all the information they need up front, and we do this by putting our value rich content at the forefront instead of a hard sell approach, for example. So, we need to build trust before we close any deals, so to speak. So I believe there is still a place for gated content. However, it just depends on which stage of the marketing fun you're at. So, for example, awareness, the consideration phase, we tend to ungate our content, whereas it gets down to the conversion phase, we tend to gate content, but only, um, under special circumstances, for example. So again, just something to consider when you were, I'd say, Producing content and campaigns dependent on the buyer's journey. The final thing, I do feel that by aligning campaigns with buyer's journey, you ensure that each interaction feels relevant and timely, which not only improves the customer experience, but also increases the likelihood of conversion, which is our objective when we're doing campaigns.

Mike: I thought it was a great answer. You covered so many things there. So, I think I'm going to try and dig in and unpack some of those. at the start you were talking a little bit about some of the platforms you use. and I think, you know, what a lot of marketers, you know, maybe are concerned about now is their Martech stack. It's a very expensive thing to build. do you use that buyer's journey to actually define what tools you have in the Martech stack?

Sophie: Yeah, absolutely. So, the buyers journey is not only central to campaign planning, as I mentioned, but also plays a critical role in shaping our Martech stack. So, the set of marketing technologies that we use to effectively engage, nurture and convert prospects at each stage of the journey. So aligning our Martech stack with the buyers journey, We can optimize each touch point and ensure that our marketing activities are data driven and customer centric. So, for example, at the awareness stage, we use SEO tools, to help drive quality content to our customers at the consideration stage. For example, we use marketing automation platforms and webinar tools to help educate and drive value to our customers. And then finally, at the conversion stage, we use tools that help sales teams convert qualified leads.  And then for the post sales stage, for example, we use anything from survey tools, email marketing and retention tools to help retain upsell and nurture our customers

Mike: I love the way you think so clearly about the Martek stack and the tools you need. I mean, what do you think people do wrong when they build Martek stacks that are either ineffective, difficult to use or expensive? What are the mistakes they make?

Sophie: Yeah, I love, I love getting asked this question because I do get asked this question quite a bit. So, this is an easy answer for me. So, you know, I feel that doing and implementing. Everything and anything just because it's a trend as opposed to focusing on the business models and needs of the business is probably the biggest mistake that I see some companies make. So, my advice here is to carefully sleep the technology that's going to compliment your strategy and add value for your customers. So, we need to make sure that customers are always king. put them at the forefront of every decision we make and that includes when we go to select Technology. So, we need to use it wisely and respectfully, because as we know, technology these days is super powerful and if used in the wrong nature, it can be catastrophic. Right? So, in everything we do, we must, like I mentioned, put our customers at the forefront and adopt the mantra of customer is king. And we need to do that while we, I'll say, select the marketing technology that's going to deliver the best outcome for the business, but more importantly, our customers.

Mike: I think that's a great answer. And I love the idea of not following fashion in Martek, but actually looking at what it brings you. So, so that's. In a way kind of obvious, but actually I think something a lot of people forget.

Sophie: I agree.

Mike: You've talked a little bit earlier about the link between marketing tactics and different stages in the customer journey, do you want to delve a little bit deeper into that and talk about which marketing tactics work best for you in different situations?

Sophie: Yeah. So based on my experience, and I have over 16 years of that, account based marketing or ABM. So, for me, why it works is. For high value B2B clients, such as the customers we have at ABB, ABM or account based marketing focuses on personalized campaigns tailored to specific accounts. So, you know, if we are focusing on data center clients or F& B clients, food and beverage clients, for example, we can tailor Content that's going to resonate for them as opposed to doing a stock standard, uh, content base. It's going to resonate across the board. We want to be super specific because that's what's going to get the highest engagement. So, as I mentioned, by crafting highly relevant content and messaging for key decision makers, such as I mentioned before, the C suite, you know, our maintenance manager, facility manager, for example, it drives stronger engagement and higher conversion rates. Secondly, data driven marketing analytics. So, with me, every decision I make is data driven, so to speak. So why it works for me is, um, data driven marketing allows you to track the performance of campaigns and make informed decisions. So, by analyzing customer behavior and campaign metrics, You can continuously refine your approach for better results, which is going to be better for the business as well, right? Thirdly, uh, digital advertising and retargeting. So this is where my main responsibilities lie within the role So why it works, digital ads, such as Google, LinkedIn display ads, allow you to reach targeted audience efficiently, retargeting ads, keep your brand top of mind. For prospects who have already interacted with your website and content. So, the goal is to keep them coming back and wanting more. You want to whet their appetite, right? And how you do that is by utilizing digital, advertising, like I mentioned, to keep driving them back to our web pages or to a particular platform and making sure that each time they visit our website, we position to them a different sort of experience, that's more targeted as they go down the funnel. Fourthly, SEO and inbound marketing. So, SEO, search engine optimization. So why it works is that it ensures that our website ranks for key terms relevant to our audience. So, a solid inbound marketing strategy attracts high quality organic traffic and nurtures leads with valuable content. So, I just want to give an example here, Mike. So, we recently did a customer research survey and found that our customers use our website as one of the top channels to obtain information. So this is along with direct interaction with our sales reps, of course. But the thing that really stood out for me, which, you know, websites, not no longer business cards, for example, they are turning into lead generation machines and this research, outcome proves that, customers are going to our website and doing the research before they interact with us. So, it's a real top channel that we're going to utilize moving forward to, I'll say, drive further content and messaging to our customers. So, this is why we invest quite a lot in our website SEO strategy. So, with our recent ongoing campaign, as I mentioned, what we're doing is driving traffic to our website using both SEO and SEM initiatives. We also found after one year of implementing our SEO strategy, and we all know that SEO strategies, it's a marathon, not a sprint, right? But after one year, we saw a 58 percent in growth year on year. So, as I mentioned, it's a marathon, not a sprint, but it's really good to see that, you know, we can see these positive results and we have also some exciting activities happening next year, which relate to our website. So, uh, stay tuned, right?

Mike: That sounds really exciting. I mean, Again, we've covered quite a lot there. But one of the themes I think was run through this is that you seem to have a very clear differentiation between, building the awareness, building the brand and educating customers to actually generating leads. So can you just dig a little bit deeper about how you balance that long term goal of building brand, and really helping people at the start of their journey, versus driving leads and presumably making your sales team a little happier.

Sophie: Yeah, absolutely. So, balancing the immediate demands of lead generation with longer term goal of building a strong brand reputation requires a strategic approach that integrates both short term and long term marketing objectives. So this is how, this is the approach I take to, you know, have that balance. So, it's all around integrated strategy, right? So, I ensure that both lead generation and brand building activities are aligned. Within an overarching marketing strategy. So, while lead generation campaigns are typically more direct and focused on driving conversions, as I mentioned earlier, they are designed to reflect the brand values, messaging and promise. Like I mentioned around the commercialization, of any strategy that you should set. So, this creates consistency between immediate results. And as I mentioned before, long term brand equity, which is really important.  Secondly, developing content that serves both goals. So, for example, a white paper or webinar can establish industry expertise, so brand building, while collecting contact information or driving prospects further down the funnel, which relates to lead generation. So, it's really important that, you know, when you develop content, because content is king, we need to make sure that serving both goals around lead gen is also brand building. reputation as well. So, I keep hopping on, but it's all around data driven optimization as well. So, as I mentioned before, I rely on data analytics to measure and optimize both lead generation and brain building efforts. So, this involves, for example, setting KPIs for each and regularly reviewing performance, whether, as I mentioned before, that be on a monthly basis or quarterly basis. So, by analyzing customer behavior, I can identify opportunities where short term campaigns can support long term brain perception and vice versa, of course. Finally, what I feel is all around getting the equal balance is a customer centric approach. As I keep mentioning, customer is king, right? So a strong focus on understanding the customer journey allows for tailoring marketing efforts that support immediate engagement without losing sight of the brand's long term reputation, for example. So, this means ensuring that even lead focused initiatives deliver value to the customer. Reinforcing the brand promise of quality and expertise is also equally important.  So those are the, the four, uh, the four things that I really focus on to get that, uh, balance.

Mike: I think that's great. And I love the way that you link very closely the benefits of brand building and also the lead gen and the fact they work together. They're not two independent things.  to move on and talk a little bit, maybe more about looking at the industry in general. and one of the things you've talked a lot about is being driven by data, which really is a relatively new thing, you know, maybe coming over the last decade. so, you know, that's been one change. Obviously, AI is a more recent change. how do you see the role of senior marketers, CMOs, VPs of marketing, changing, perhaps over the next five to 10 years? with technology. I mean, what's going to happen and what's going to change?

Sophie: Yeah, so, I mean, I personally see my role evolving to be a more central driver of business growth and innovation. So, with the rise of AI, as you mentioned, you know, data analytics and other emerging technologies that we touched on, the role will increasingly demand a combination of both strategic leadership, acumen and customer and a customer centric approach. So, with that, obviously, technology is going to support that. But I definitely believe that, you know, instead of it being a more traditional.  It will go more into, you know, being a role that's going to be, a center driver of business growth and innovation. So, there's going to be a lot of evolution happening. which is a good thing. So, we need to evolve with the industry and the trends as well.

Mike: Sounds like that's quite a challenge for senior marketers to, take a more business focused role.  Um, this has been fascinating. I mean, we've covered, I think, an awful lot of ground in this conversation. there are a couple of questions we'd like to ask people, before we finish off.

So, if I just fire them out at you. The first question is really simple. What's the best piece of marketing advice you've ever been given?

Sophie: I've had a lot of mentors and a lot of advice given to me over the years that I've been in the marketing field. But one of the best pieces that I can recall, is focus on solving customer problems, not just selling a product. So, it emphasizes the need I feel to truly understand your audience, their pain points and how your solution can make their lives easier because, you know, it's all about making everyone's lives easier. And if you can find a solution to do that, marketing activities will be easy, so to speak. So, when marketing is centered on the value it brings, rather than just the features of the product or service, it fosters a deeper connection with our customers. So, you know, it builds trust and ultimately, will drive loyalty, retention, and ongoing sales and opportunities.

Mike: Perfect. I mean, that's great advice that everyone can take advantage of. the other question we like to ask is if you're talking to a young person who's starting out in their career, considering moving into marketing, perhaps a graduate, what would be your advice to them to help build a great career in marketing?

Sophie: Yes, so marketing to me as much as much about psychology is it is about creating and strategizing, so to speak, right? So focus on, you know, understanding what drives people's decisions and emotions, learn about human behavior. Not just about the latest marketing train. So you understand what resonates or what makes a person tick on. And then once you've got that value proposition, as I mentioned in my previous answer,  the marketing activities that you employ or implement will will come easy or or fly. So don't just focus on the latest marketing trains. As I mentioned before, don't just focus on the latest marketing technology and apply it. Make sure that you understand and have that deeper connection with your customers and build that trust and loyalty.

Mike: And I think that's a fantastic way to end. We've come back to really understand the customer journey as being the key.

Sophie: Absolutely.

Mike: Thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge and insight. if people would like to get hold of you, what would be the best way for them to contact you to get more information?

Sophie: Yeah. So if you can reach out to me on LinkedIn, if you just Google Sophie Neat, ABB and, uh, I will appear and yeah, please connect. I'm happy to have an offline conversation with, uh, any up and coming marketeer or, uh, marketeer that has been in the business for a while.

Mike: Amazing. That's very generous. Thank you so much for your time, Sophie. I really appreciate you being a guest on the podcast.

Sophie: Great. Thank you, Mike. Lovely to be here. Thank you for having me.

by Natasha Websdale

Go-To-Market Strategy and Social Media for B2B: Insights from Andy Lambert - Adobe

Andy Lambert, Senior Product Marketing Manager, at Adobe and founder of ContentCal, a social media marketing tool acquired by Adobe in 2021, shares his insights into the intricacies of navigating acquisitions and shares his thoughts on effective go-to-market strategies. He offers some great ideas on how to leverage social media in the B2B space, along with tactical advice on successful campaigns and practical tips to support your own marketing efforts.

• Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
• Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
• Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com

About Adobe

Adobe is a global leader in digital media and digital marketing solutions with a range of creative apps and services for photography, design, video and more.

About Andy Lambert

Andy is a marketing leader who has spent the last 12 years setting up, scaling and selling multiple software businesses.

In 2016, Andy joined two others as part of the founding team of ContentCal, a social media marketing tool. Over five years, the team raised over $10 million, expanded to serve thousands of customers across more than 100 countries, won numerous awards, and, in late 2021, was acquired by Adobe Inc.

Time Stamps

[00:42.2] – Andy discusses his career from founding ContentCal to joining Adobe.

[03:52.2] – Andy talks about the importance of defining a target audience.

[10:59:1] – Andy explains his take on go-to-market strategies.

[15:39.5] – How can B2B businesses leverage social media?

[20:22.3] – Andy talks about some examples of successful marketing campaigns.

[24:48.7] – Andy discusses how the role of the CMO may change in coming years.

[27:31.3] – Andy shares the best piece of marketing advice he’s heard.

[28:16.9] – Andy offers advice for those just starting their marketing careers.

Quotes

"It's easy to get over enamoured with how quickly you can get stuff done with AI.  AI tools are an amazing opportunity to increase your utility and increase your leverage, but it's very important that we balance that… balance it with a deep understanding at an emotional level of what truly drives an audience.”- Andy Lambert, Senior Product Marketing Manager at Adobe.

“I just need to post more on LinkedIn, right? No. 80 percent of the content that happens about our brand on social should not be from us, it should be from other people. So, it's our job to try and find a way to unlock that.” - Andy Lambert, Senior Product Marketing Manager at Adobe.

Follow Andy:

Andy Lambert on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyrlambert/

Adobe website: https://www.adobe.com/

Adobe on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/adobe/

Follow Mike:

Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/

Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/

Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.

Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Transcript: Interview with Andy Lambert at Adobe

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Andy Lambert

Mike: Andy, thanks for listening to marketing B to B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today, welcome to marketing B to B technology, the podcast from Napier today, I'm joined by Andy Lambert, who's a Senior Manager product at Adobe. Welcome to the podcast, Andy,

Andy: Hey Mike, good to be here.

Mike: So Andy, I know that you've had an interesting career and actually ended up at Adobe through an acquisition. So can you just walk us through you know what you've done and what took you ultimately to join Adobe, yeah,

Andy: I’ll keep it short. So my career started in sales, which I fell into by chance also fell into by chance that it was a B to B tech company. And in doing that, found that had a affinity for it, got really into B to B startups and SaaS and all that good stuff. And I thought, like any arrogant salesperson, would you like? How hard could it be to do it for myself? So here I am winning business for another business, fancy doing it for myself. So didn't have either the guts or the financial backing to do it back then. So I found someone who had an idea. Fortunately, we were introduced, and this idea was for the company that would become content Cal, which, as the name suggests, it is a content calendar product, so essentially allows people to organize their content and publish it. So we met in 2016 won the first customer towards the end of that year, and built it over the course of the following five or so years where we got it to maybe about 100 countries, three and a half 1000 customers, something like that. And in December 21 we sold to Adobe, which frankly, made us all fall off our chairs, if we're honest, from like a little company, from reading and London selling to one of the biggest companies on the planet, it's pretty cool. And the vision for for Adobe was that they were really pushing, or they are really pushing, on this product called Adobe Express, which to empower creativity for all. So Adobe obviously known for the Pro Tools in design, Premier Pro Photoshop, yada yada. So Adobe Express is a tool that allows anyone to be creative, even numbers like myself. And the idea here was to connect the design tools that exist in Adobe Express, typically, it's used for social media content creation, and connect that with a distribution platform, naturally would take a bit longer to for them to have built it themselves. So decided to to buy in the expertise, which is why I've now ended up as a senior manager of product Adobe.

Mike: That's fascinating. I mean, it's great to hear about that acquisition. I'm just interested. Was that something you were looking for to sell the business, or was it something where Adobe came to you and asked about purchasing?

Andy: Yes. So given our backing, we had been funded since day one. So raise some angel rounds and raise series A so probably raised about ten million all told. And when you've gone on that journey, you've pretty much you've only got one outcome, which is you're going to have to exit it at some point. So yeah, hands are kind of tied on that one. And of course, those investors all want their money back and then some so, so on that basis, you're really going for a large exit. Now, did we think we would sell as soon as we did? Because we just raised Series A, and we were on the on the path to hit those gross numbers, go to Series B and just just continue. So that happened earlier than we expected, and we were approached, and after a careful review of it, it seemed like the right strategic move for the business stakeholders, etc. So that's what happened.

Mike: That sounds exciting. I mean, presumably, you know, with your work, you've been focused on really selling to people who do marketing with their professional marketers, or people who've got it as a side job, particularly around getting content for social I mean, how do you look at that audience? You know, what do you think these people need? Is it one audience, or is it quite diverse?

Andy: I think initially, we made the very typical mistake of thinking our product was applicable for everyone, and certainly in the early days of building a business, I'm sure many people who've built marketing strategies would think the same or feel the same anyway, where you think, Okay, we've got broad applicability. Let's just go out to everyone. Make the messages fairly generic, so we could appeal to the solopreneur or the, you know, the enterprise, naturally, if you're trying to appeal to everyone, typically appeal to no one. So that was about six months of waste of trying to figure out who we were trying to sell to. So the way we thought about it was through a process that I still live by today. It's called the customer discovery process. Process from my favorite book on startups, called the startup owners manual. It's a very weighty tome, and this customer discovery process kind of flips the early sales process on its head, where you just spend more time sitting with lots of different customer segments and just trying to understand from it's more like a research project rather than like a sales mission, if you will. And that helped us understand that actually, you know, the audience that got us first was those, those smaller agencies and those freelancers that have a bunch of different clients, because they they felt the most pain in terms of content planning, collaborating with clients backwards and forwards on approvals. And that's where we had that initial traction. So we called that our minimum viable audience. This wasn't what we're going to build the whole, you know, multi million dollar vision on, but it was the thing that gave us that sustainable growth to start with. And because you've targeted such a focused audience, it means word of mouth spreads much quicker. So that gave us that nice foundation of growth, and as time went on, we started to add different segments, like going more into like B to B marketers. Does that make any sense?

Mike: No, that sounds really sensible. You know, I love that concept of minimum viable audience. I think that that's a great thing for companies that are growing or just starting out to think about you don't have to hit everybody. Hit the people who are going to be you know the best audience. You talked about this customer discovery process. Could you just explain a little bit more about exactly what you did there to work out what was your ideal audience or your minimum viable audience?

Andy: Yeah, of course. So the first step was, and it's fairly simple, to be honest, it spent a lot of LinkedIn outreach whereby I would approach a certain subset of individuals like we've just spoken about, and said, I'd love to take you out for coffee, because you're very experienced in your space. We're trying to work on something that I think can make an impact to you, but I would love your take on it. And at that point, I've not mentioned a product and not mentioned I'd like to sell to like to sell to you. It's just to find some time, particularly in person as well. Probably makes it sound a bit old school, but like they're nothing beats being in person for those early conversations. So then, when I sat with someone, buy my coffee, have a couple of slides of like. Our thesis of like, this is what we think is the challenge in the space, the challenge that you're facing, does that resonate with you? So it's kind of like validating our marketing proposition at the same time, and then, you know, talk me through what your challenges are, what you wish you could be able to do or achieve, to help you scale or hit your ambitions the other so those very open questions yielded such incredibly rich qualitative data that we could then go, okay, these people started to really resonate when we said these things. And they all connected about like, the pain of sending a spreadsheet or doing WhatsApp approvals, you know, backwards and forwards on content, people started to nod along. It was then, when we're like, all of those insights, then just inform all of our go to market strategy, all of our messaging, because essentially all we're doing is repeating back what people have told us. So it's just, it's a research mission, and yeah, it's always my, my thing is that marketers don't spend anywhere near enough time as they should, directly with customers, and that's where all the gold is.

Mike: I love that process. I think that's something we all could do, not necessarily as a startup, but, you know, wherever we are in our businesses. So I'm interested. You know, you started off you, you know, initially looking at these freelancers, small agencies, as you mentioned, you then grew it. I mean, what was the change that happened when he moved to Adobe? I mean, was that like a massive complete reset, or do you feel you're still doing somewhat the same things,

Andy: Complete reset, if, if we're honest, so which comes with positives and negatives. Essentially, the product, content, Cal is is no more. So as part of the acquisition, it's shut down the business. We're three years post acquisition, so the business shut down, and we focused all of our efforts. A lot of the team, unfortunately had to go. So because snapcha is a lot of duplication of resource, etc, and we've built the functionality from scratch inside of Adobe Express. So it is completely like a complete change that, being said, Adobe, being an amazing acquire, has been very respectful, because there is a lot of upheaval, right? So, you know, whilst it feels like a wonderful achievement to sell a business, I'm still obviously very proud. It's still, there's still some very painful moments and times post sale, as you can imagine, right? You've built a business together, you feel like a family in a startup or so, you know what it's like working in a small business, right? Mike, so you know that that's kind of painful, and it unfortunately, it's just the process it is. It is what it is. So who we're targeting right now is different. So we're targeting much more, smaller businesses that don't necessarily operate. Like agencies, not quite big businesses yet. And essentially we're kind of starting again, if you will, building smaller functionalities that allow like the solopreneurs to do what they need to or individuals. And then we're going to go back on that journey to scale it again, because essentially we've built the product from scratch, and it takes time to develop the product. And what you can't do as a business to say, Oh, well, we haven't got the features yet, or wait till we get the features and then we can grow it. It's like, given our feature set we have now, who can we appeal best to right now? Where's that overlapping? Ben, and that's where kind of the solo printer audience come into it.

Mike: Absolutely. I would just want to move on now to something perhaps less specific about content count and a bit more general. I mean, I'm interested because, you know, if you look at your LinkedIn profile, you talk a lot about go to market. And I have to say I'm a little bit of a cynic. I'm a bit of an old guy. I kind of feel that go to market is sort of marketing, as we used to call it, many years ago. I mean, what's your view? How do you define go to market?

Andy: When you sent this question over, Mike, I chuckled at this one, because I was like, fundamentally, you're right, and us in marketing, where certainly me and others are guilty of giving different names to the same thing. And I think that's often baked in the fact that many people don't understand what marketing actually means. Marketing is kind of a nebulous concept. Many people conflate marketing with promotion. People think, oh, marketing is like doing the tactical bit, and that's why I've typically called it go to market. So when I think about go to market, which you're right, that's, let's just clarify that I'm aligned with you, Mike, it is just marketing, but just for anyone listening when I when I say go to market and contextually, I'm interested to know if, if if you would still call this marketing when I explained it, think about it in three ways. So firstly, this all the market research or the diagnosis, right? All of the analysis, customer discovery, the stuff we've spoken about right at the top, right? So understanding who we're going after. Then the second stage, which is a strategy, and that's understanding, or at least thinking about the story we're going to tell, value proposition, commit, competitive differentiation, reasons to believe all of that go to market strategy, as I would call it. And then the third part is the tactical piece. It's like, how then do we instill that go to market strategy? Do we which does include promotion, clearly, like Google ads, LinkedIn, etc, includes like offline stuff, events or podcasts like this. But also, and this is an important point, and we might talk about this later in the evolving role of a CMO, is that it also factors in the sales decks, right the scripts the sales people use, the battle cards they'll use, also how Customer Success deal with customers, how they work towards upsells and even offboarding process. When people churn, you know, marketing, go to market touched on all of that. If there is any single interaction with a customer, it's in the go to market strategy, or maybe Mike you call it just marketing. How's that sound to you? Does that that resonate?

Mike: I totally agree. And I have to be honest. I mean, I do see a difference in the way people today approach this problem. So back in the day, you know, when I started out marketing, it was about the five Ps, which pretty much cover what you said in go to marketing, you know, price, position, place, people, promotion, isn't it. But the way it was done was you looked at each of those separately. And I think what perhaps go to market has done is it's made it more into a process. People have thought about it, more about a sequence of activities that then impinge on all these things. It impinges on the channels you choose. It impinges on your pricing strategy, your promotion, etc. But I do, I do understand that people today talking about go to market. They're a lot more sophisticated than people talking, you know, maybe 30 years ago about marketing generally. So I do see it as a positive. And I think that's interesting. I mean, do you see it as being, you know, much more of this process you run through, rather than this kind of list of five things you've got to tick off.

Andy: Yeah, it is. It's a continually iterative process. And I think this is, and I can only speak from my limited slice of the world that I've seen in my 38 years, right? So I've only got limited context, but like my strong hypothesis off the back of this is that all of this needs to to tree up to one individual that owns it, Chief Revenue Officer, CMO, whatever role you you want to put in there. Because often we see that kind of bifurcation, where you've got CMO or and a Chief Sales Officer or sales director, where they're kind of little bit at odds, and there's no one true owner of like that narrative messaging and that whole process, because it is an iterative process. You're like, like I said in customer discovery, it's not like we found our Minimal Viable audience. We're gonna have to do the whole darn process again to go for the next segment. So you're absolutely right. This is not a box check exercise. It's not like a like how business plans used to be. You create this. 30 page business plan, which then lives, yeah, in your top draw somewhere, and you never look at it again, right? So it's it needs to have someone looking at it all the time, and an overall owner of it. So yes, it's a short version. And my answer to your question, Mike,

Mike: Brilliant, it's good. We're agreeing. And let's move on to talking a little bit about tactics. And if people you know look at your LinkedIn or Google, they'll find you've got a sub stack all about B to B social media. So I'm really interested to know how you see B to B, or how you see social media fitting into B to B, and what you see the pros and cons of trying to do B to B promotion through social

Andy: I'm with you. So yeah, a couple of caveats on that one to call out the word of like, promotion that you just used like, it's, there's a be a promotional element to it, but like, predominantly, it's, it's not and, and secondly, it's, it's important to know, whilst I'm a huge advocate from my context and experience of social for B to B, it's, it's the only context I know. It doesn't necessarily mean it's applicable to everyone, so just want to caveat that from the outset. But the thing is, I personally and strongly believe it's the way that modern brands certainly B to B's will grow. Because, like we said, in that kind of customer discovery process, it's that when you know who your audiences are, and you know the language that they speak, that means that word of mouth spreads. Word of mouth spreads through online communities. And when I say social media, I don't just mean, oh, we're posting something to our LinkedIn company pages. It's, I mean, I know, you know that, Mike, but just to be just for the purpose of clarity, it's everything that touches social which is the sentiment that's happening on Reddit threads, for example, in Facebook groups, it's all of the communities that are that have your B to B marketers, in which, in our case, or whatever industry that you're in, there will be microcosms of communities online everywhere, and it's our job to have a voice in those or if at least we can't have A voice work with others that can have a voice for us, which then goes into the whole influence of partnerships and partnerships with communities, which was a huge Libra that we pulled on at content Cal, I spent as much time with customers as I did with communities that had access to the types of audiences that we want, and the value exchange there requires a delicacy of touch that's often hard to explain, because it's not just about, oh yeah, here's a couple of grand. Can you post something for us? Most those communities, if they're worth their salt, will say, No. Who are you? You're joking like, if you spend the time to build a relationship with them like you would a customer and go, Okay, so your community is amazing. You've built an incredible thing here. But is there anything that that I can do to help and typically, with those communities like that's interesting. So that, for example, for some communities, I would co create content like, my strong suit is like social media analytics. So I'd create them content to help their audience with how to analyze and define success on social media. I'd also give their community like 90 day free trials on the on the product, so it actually adds value to those communities. And we didn't pay them anything. It's just a value exchange so that they could get something that was good for their community, which in turn makes their community feel better too. So I spent a lot of time doing that. We also had some paid for influencer partnerships. But it's, it's all of those voices that started talking about us is a thing that became successful, and this is, and I'm sorry I'm on the soapbox here, so I'll keep it short, but honestly, that's, the biggest mindset shift and misunderstanding I see in B to B social. Because people are like, Oh, cool. I just need to post more on LinkedIn, right? It's like, no. 80% of the content that happened about our brand on social should not be from us. It should be from other people. So it's our job to try and find a way to unlock that of which is what I wrote my whole book on, to be honest. So yeah, an area I feel very passionate about, as you can probably tell

Mike: Absolutely, and I find it interesting. I mean, I think, like most things with B to B, it feels like social media for B to B is actually quite a bit more complex than social media for consumer I mean, do you agree with that?

Andy: I think it is. It requires a lot more nuance, I would say, yeah, and certainly, as it pertains to the influencer piece, harder to find, harder to work with, because, you know, we're not looking for celebrities to endorse our lipstick, right? We're we're looking for people that are have true domain expertise, that don't have, like, 10s of millions of followers, because there are cyber security experts, so they're not going to but we want to find people that have a deep connection with those CIOs in this example that we really want to reach. So yeah, that's why, yes, in that instance, it takes longer, and you've got to be a lot smarter about how you approach it. Definitely.

Mike: I mean, I do think, you know, sometimes people assume that it's easy. You just contact an influencer and it all works, and it is more complex. I mean, I'm interested. We can steal, perhaps, some of your good ideas here. You know, is there a particular campaign you've run that you think was either innovative or particularly effective, that you know, perhaps has some lessons for some of the people listening to the podcast.

Andy: So I'll do, I'll do two. I'll do one from content Cal days and one from A, B to B, tech company that I have huge respect for. One from content Calc. We not spoken about it so far. One of the most successful things that we did, and we leveraged this all the time, it was the cornerstone of our content strategy, was a simple, humble webinar. The most powerful thing, right? So webinars as a tactic won't be groundbreaking for anyone listening to this, but the thing that we did, that I think, was interesting, is that we paid very close attention to the people who we got on the podcast. So what we didn't do, even though we're appealing, you know, right, right at the outset, we're appealing to those kind of small agencies, etc. Our webinars was all about, how do we have a halo effect for our brand, for who we want to acquire in the future? So that way we invited like the head of social from Monzo or innocent drinks, those kind of brands are hugely respected. No, they weren't customers. But the wonderful thing that happens when you invite great brands in is that people make a mental Association, which are not prompted by us to say, Oh, wow. Like it's content color used by Monzo innocent drinks, Steven Bartlett, wow. They must be good. Weren't used by any of them. But the point is we, we gave a platform for these social media managers to share their strategies, and then we became like the social media strategy people. We just hammered that as a tactic. So on a bad day, our webinars would have 1000 people turn up, and that was our whole funnel based on so that's that one thing that has worked, not groundbreaking, just when we truly understand the audience and who we're trying to serve and where we want to take the business, and just curating appropriately, that's a tactic. And secondly, cognism, one of my favorite B to B Tech brands. They leverage the thought leader ads on LinkedIn, which are a fairly new thing, and basically they they've led into the personality led growth approach we all know like how important that is in B to B and yeah, they're essentially, they're promoting the content of their individual thought leaders, like their CMO or their chief sales officer, etc, and using that as their main content, because they know and you can see the results on their on their page, that's the content that drives the majority of the engagement.

Mike: Yeah, and I guess going back to that first point, we should probably say that Napier isn't the agency for Adobe. We're not working with Adobe. We don't actually work in your sector, but if you want to imagine we're that good, we're very happy that positive conversation. I really appreciate your time. Andy, I mean it, you know, I want to get to some of the questions we ask towards the end, where we try and ask the same questions to people, just to get different points of view on certain topics. And so kind of a bit of a quick fire round. You know, there's been a lot of talk recently, particularly in B to B, about people spending a lot more time researching online, a lot less time engaging with salespeople. You've obviously seen the light and move from sales into marketing, into a more broader product management role. I mean, do you agree that's happening, and what do you think marketers should do to actually take advantage of this and make their roles bigger?

Andy: Yeah, it's a great question. I think there's a lot of data that empirically proves this too. My single suggestion for this, my own personal perspective, is that as marketers, we need to empower the rest of our sales teams to become personalities in their own right online. So again, that personality led growth thing that I lean into quite a lot, and I've seen that just final point on that is that I've seen that play off very well from from me personally. So whenever I went into a sales meeting at content Cal, I'm now still at Adobe, people like, oh, I reckon I follow you, or I read, read your book, or I saw your sub stack, immediately the guard comes down in the conversation, you have suddenly that one to one conversation. So I think that that really will will help educate people earlier on in the funnel, and also when it comes to that decision making process. And if anyone you know sales people are still going to be relevant for some B to B's, and it really helps make those sales conversations work out a lot more positively.

Mike: That's fantastic. And I think we can lead on to the next question now is so you know, obviously you've kind of hinted that the role of marketing is is going to involve really building up the sales team and their brand and their reputation. But what other changes do you think are going to happen? You know, particularly to senior marketing executives. I mean, how's the CMO role going to change? For example?

Andy: Yeah, I think the the modern CMO, yes, like I said earlier, will need to assume responsibility for more than just marketing, right? We've seen the 10 years of. As CMOS, which are at their all time lowest, because typically, I think even CEOs don't understand this, because marketers are brought in as like chief promotion officers quite often, where they're like, oh, look, you didn't move the numbers in a year and a half. Yeah, goodbye. It takes, it takes more time than that. So I think marketers and CMOS, even though they're senior individuals, really need to start staking their claim as to, like, what's the macro impact of marketing and organizational level? What are we trying to do? So, for example, like being able to understand metrics like unaided awareness or share a voice, those elements take it away from especially B to be like lead and opportunities and sales and that kind of stuff, because the most important factor of all of this is that 95% of any given market is not in the market to buy. You'll know this anyway. So marketing needs to elevate the conversation a much more strategic level. That also means that marketers need at the CMO level to be the true experts of a customer. Really represent a customer. Voice know it better than anyone. You should not have a CEO understanding a customer better than you. Everyone should bow down to your knowledge, your deep knowledge of your customer, which will be engendered from those conversations that I spoke about earlier and as well, we've got so many AI driven tools as well to speed up market research, get our sentiment all across Reddit and Facebook groups aggregated into a to a nice dashboard. All of those tools exist, and I think that that modern cmo that's both data informed by all of this sentiment that's happening, and this is even conversations happening at the top of Adobe too, related to this kind of stuff as well. So we know, we know it's incredibly important those that can speak with expertise about the customer and use all of that data, but also bring that, that humanity to the business that we absolutely need. Because we know, fundamentally, despite all of this wonderful data and data driven decision making, fundamentally business is human, and it's a trust based business, so we need to, CMOs still need to be an expert in that kind of humanity and emotional led element of that too. So quite a hard balance to strike. But yeah, that's the future.

Mike: Sounds like the future could be quite challenging, but also quite rewarding. So I think that's super positive. I feel bad, you know, almost asking the next question. You've given us so much advice, so many insights, but is there a piece of market advice, really good piece of market advice we haven't covered, that you'd like to share?

Andy: Yeah, it's probably sounds trite, because I talk about it all the time, but it's the thing that I would have printed on a t shirt if I could, or if I was sad enough, it would be your brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room. So that is not my quote, or no one said this to me because I'm not friends with Jeff Bezos, but I just I adore it. It speaks to all of the the kind of fluffy, emotional side of of brand. And a brand is just the feelings and the feelings you engender from the promises that you make. And that's it.

Mike: Love it. That's a great quote. And finally, I know you're you know you've been very generous of your time, but if there's a young person listening who's just starting out on their marketing career, what advice would you give them?

Andy: Second question, I would say it's easy to get over enamored with how quickly you can get stuff done with AI. AI tools are an amazing opportunity to increase your utility and increase your leverage, but it's very important, though, that we balance that, and I've said this already, balance it with the humanity and balance it with a deep understanding at an emotional level of what truly drives an audience, and when you combine the kind of the rational and the emotional, that's when you can truly do great work in marketing. So just, just don't get over fixated on all of the shiny tools, because the only thing that matters, nothing else matters other than the person you're trying to serve.

Mike: That's great advice. We nearly got through a whole podcast discussion without mentioning AI, but even managed to come in. Andy, thank you so much. It's been fascinating. It's been, you know, really interesting talking to you. I know there's a lot you do online, but what's the best way if people want to learn a bit more or find out about your views on B to B social, how can I either get hold of you or find out more?

Andy: Yeah, so thanks for the opportunity. Firstly, I'm on LinkedIn. Just search. Andy Lambert, you will also see my book, which is probably behind me somewhere. I don't know if this is going to be on video, but yeah, it's called Social 3.0 and I have a sub stack, which you can join for free. Just search social three dot sub stack.com, and, yeah, all of my ramblings are in those three areas.

Mike: That's awesome. Andy, I've really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you so much for being a guest on marketing, B to B technology.

Andy: Thank you for having me, Mike. Appreciate it. Bye.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to marketing, B to B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode, and if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes or on your favorite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at napierbe to be.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn. You.

by Natasha Websdale

Simplifying SEO: How to Demystify Search Engine Optimization - Moz

Ethan Hays, General Manager at Moz, and STAT Analytics dives into the world of SEO. He shares his insights on simplifying SEO and the importance of democratising it within organisations, ensuring all stakeholders recognise its value.

Ethan compares the dynamics of startups and large enterprises, as well as the cultural differences between East and West Coast marketing landscapes. He also explores the evolving role of the Chief Marketing Officer (CMO) and the need for integrating marketing and sales in today’s business environment.

• Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
• Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
• Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com

About Moz

Moz is a marketing analytics software company that provides tools and resources for search engine optimisation (SEO). The platform offers features like keyword research, link building, and site audits to help businesses improve their online visibility and search rankings. Moz is also known for its educational content, including blogs and guides that simplify SEO for users of all skill levels.

About Ethan

Originally studying sports medicine, Ethan discovered a passion for SEO and has built a successful career over the past two decades. Having held various roles in startups, enterprises and agencies, as well as founding his own agency, he is now the General Manager at Moz and STAT Search Analytics.

Time Stamps

00:04:54 - Ethan's Career Journey: Startups to Agencies
00:08:33 - Cultural Differences: East Coast vs. West Coast
00:13:27 - The Misconceptions of SEO
00:16:30 - Democratizing SEO Within Organizations
00:18:08 - Moz's Approach to Simplifying SEO
00:23:40 - The Impact of Generative AI on SEO
00:32:15 - The Evolving Role of CMOs
00:36:01 - Quick Marketing Advice from Ethan
00:37:27 - Advice for Aspiring Marketers
00:40:16 - Contact Information

Quotes

“It shocks me… talking to executives at very large, sophisticated companies who to this day have not even approached SEO as a category. Like it’s too complex….” Ethan Hays General Manager at Moz and STAT Analytics.

“It [SEO] is the single most scalable source of high margin, high intent traffic.” Ethan Hays General Manager at Moz and STAT Analytics.

Follow Ethan:

Ethan Hays on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ethanhays/

Moz website: https://moz.com/

Moz on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/moz/

STAT Analytics website: https://getstat.com/ 

Follow Mike:

Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/

Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/

Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.

Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Transcript: Interview with Ethan Hays at Moz

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Ethan Hays

Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today. Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier.

Today, I'm joined by Ethan Hayes. Ethan is the General Manager for Moz and Stats Search Analytics. Welcome to the podcast, Ethan.

Ethan: Very glad to be with you. Thanks for having me.

Mike: So tell me about your career and how someone who studies sports medicine ends up in search.

Ethan: Yeah, you know, you would be shocked at the amount of times that I've heard that exact question. And, you know, it's, it's funny trying to think back and put together all the pieces, you know, I can come up with reasons. I can come up with rationales that the, the honest answer as to how I ended up in SEO is I just fell in love with it. I was working in the Bay Area, in the startup world, sort of just after the first internet bubble burst. And I happened into a job where managing networks of affiliate marketers was my job. the most successful affiliates were really good at organic search. And so I got curious about it. And the more I dug in, the more I found that was fascinating to me. And I just I fell in love and I've been in love ever since that I've been doing it professionally for, you know, 20 plus years. But I I think if I had to go back and say sort of what's the what's the connective tissue or the commonality between my interest in sports medicine and my interest in SEO, I would have to say that it's probably that I have an obsession with complex systems that have a human face. So in the sports medicine world, there's lots of very fundamental laboratory science you can do, right? You can spend your entire day in a white lab coat with a bunch of beakers in the chemistry lab doing various different kinds of chemical reactions. And to me, that was also so abstract that it never really caught my attention. But if you take that same study of chemical reactions and you put it in the context of this is how your body creates energy so you can do a vertical jump or something like that, suddenly it became alive and relatable and interesting to me. And I sort of found a similar thing in the field of SEO, where, of course, the everything behind the search interface, there's so much technical complexity. You know, the original big data was Google trying to, you know, essentially store a copy of the Internet locally. There's so much advance now, you know, with with machine learning and artificial intelligence, all the rest of it. But on its face, It's a very human and understandable pursuit. It's just a regular person like you and me going to the search box, typing in something and hoping to get an answer to their question. And so it was that mix of that complexity with that very sort of relatable human face that really drew me in.

Mike: That's fascinating the way you link those two apparently quite different disciplines together. I mean, clearly your career's in search. You've actually had quite a lot of different experiences. Do you want to talk about that? Do you want to talk about the industries you've worked in? And also I think you've worked both client side as well as working in agencies and even founded agencies. So tell me a little bit about the journey and what ultimately led you to end up at Moz.

Ethan: Yeah. You know, Moz was really a part of my, my SEO journey from the very beginning. I got started in about 2003. Moz sort of popped up in about 2004. And just because of that coincidence of timing, I enjoyed the Moz community. I spent a lot of time there. And so, so Moz was part of my professional journey from the very early days, but. To your question, yes, lots of different industries, lots of different sort of professional environments that I've been in. I spent probably the first 12 years of my career working with technology startups in Silicon Valley. And I absolutely fell in love with the startup space, just the energy of it, getting a small team of people together to solve a hard problem. I love that energy, fell in love with the startup world. But then of course, life happens. I had to move from San Francisco to New York City. And when I moved to New York City, I got my start in the agency world for the first time, worked at a B2B marketing agency called Gyro. They were the largest independent B2B agency in the world at the time. They ended up getting sold to Dentsu later, but got to know the agency world a little bit and just the difference in business culture from the West Coast to the East Coast. It's a very real thing, right? My joke at the time was that hopping on a plane and flying from San Francisco to New York City was like getting in a time machine going back about 10 years. It was just, it was such a different environment because this was, you know, it was about 2012 thereabouts. And I came from Silicon Valley, which is very, it's very technology forward, very data forward. You've got little companies trying to take on big companies. And so if you have a breakout gross channel, like a search engine optimization, you've got the entire organizational line behind it and everybody's pulling in the same direction. And then if you go to the East Coast and we at this B2B marketing agency, we had the very good fortune of being able to work with some very, very large clients, you know, Fortune 100, Fortune 10 in some cases. And the complete step change in the kinds of conversations that I was having was a bit hard to absorb at first, right? It went from, you know, what's the most cutting edge thing that we can do with our technology to increase our SEO performance to sitting down with the chief marketing officer of a fortune 100 company. And their first question to me is, so what is digital? And I'm like, Oh boy, I'm going to have to backtrack a little bit. Right. So it was, it was a very eyeopening experience, but also very necessary because it points to the fact that it is so easy for folks, especially technology folks. we get attracted by puzzles, we get attracted by technology, we tend to go down rabbit holes. And the rest of the world doesn't tend to do that. The rest of the world doesn't have that same sort of obsessive interest. And so the ability to zoom out, to up level, to understand a very different business reality, a very different set of personalities and priorities and calibrate your pitch to meet them where they are. That was a very meaningful step in my career that was facilitated by having to have these conversations with just much larger, much, much more complex companies. And that has served me well to this day. I've continued to work in both sort of a mix of, of startups, but also I've spent quite a bit of time in the past. seven or eight years working in private equity and organizations like that and mergers and acquisitions. And so being able to see so many different aspects of the professional world and start to learn a little bit of their common language and their frameworks for understanding the world has been very beneficial to me. I'm a big advocate for broadening your horizons.

Mike: I love that idea of broadening your horizons. I also really enjoyed the description of the differences between the East and West Coast 10 years ago. You've also worked on agencies and on the client side, as well as for established companies and startups. Do you also see cultural differences there, or is it more geographical? I mean, where are the differences really occurring?

Ethan: I will say that there are, I think, very real differences in sort of basic mindset and posture towards life. You hear people talking about like, oh, the easygoing West coasters and the hard charging East coasters. And to me, there is actually a great deal of signal in that stereotype. I've seen it over and over and over again myself. But to me, that has not been the primary differentiator. The differences seem to be driven mostly by the scale of the company itself. Uh, which is to say in a lot of startup environments, you're primarily working with companies that are, man, let's say at a hundred people, maybe 150 people. And you kind of have that Dunbar's number advantage going for you, where you can generally feel like, you know, most of the people and personalities and the names of folks. And then once you get into the large enterprise world, the scale just blows that out entirely. And you have to, because of the scale of the organization. the views of that organization necessarily become more abstract. So at the last holding company that I was at before, Ziff Davis, I reported directly to the CEO of that company and he had, I forget, 40 something agencies all around the world rolling up to him. His view of those businesses was a spreadsheet. It was your quarterly results. That's what he looked at. That was the data that was presented to him. And the story of that company had to be presentable and understandable in a spreadsheet. That is a very different view of the world than when you're in a small startup and you know everybody on a first name basis.

Mike: I think that's very true. I mean, certainly at Napier, we have the benefit of being small. Everyone knows everyone else. You have those close personal relationships. So as you alluded to, you moved to Moz and then Moz now is part of Ziff Davis. Let's talk about where you are today. And it's interesting because you're actually the first, if you like, repeat guest. So somebody we've had from a company where we've already had another guest. Inga Bubez was a great guest for us talking about SEO. I'm interested, what's your role in Moz and what are you doing to help people with search and search engine optimization?

Ethan: Yeah, you know, it is funny. So this year at Moz, we celebrated our 20th anniversary. So we had MozCon this summer and it was our big 20th anniversary celebration. And that felt wonderful, right? As a longtime member of the community, the fact that Moz has endured for 20 years, Not a lot of companies have a 20 year lifespan, right? So just celebrating that was fantastic. But I am really more focused on the next 20 years, of course. And I still, to this day, see the opportunity for SEO as being in relatively early innings. It shocks me to this day talking to executives at very large sophisticated companies who to this day have not even approached SEO as a category. Like, oh, it's too complex. You've got to find some rock star, some guru, some ninja to help you understand the space. And it's just, it's too much for us. It's too much. And that hurts me deep inside because I know it's not true. I know it's not true. The opportunity for SEO is absolutely massive for any company at scale that approaches it. It is the single most scalable source of high margin, high intent traffic that is broadly available to anyone with a website. That is true today. It was true 20 years ago. That reality has not changed. But unfortunately, The way that our industry has communicated with SEO broadly has continued to contribute to this, this mischaracterization of SEO is this like, you know, this black magic. One of my, one of my very early companies that I, that I worked with in the, in Silicon Valley, I founded the, the SEO and search focused product marketing practice at healthline.com. I was a tiny little company, 30 people when I started. It's now a huge company. It got sold to Red Ventures for $190 million. They do 200 million visits a month. They're a juggernaut. And the fact of the matter with SEO is that it gets sold in as something that is incredibly complex and incredibly technical and therefore regular folks can't do it. You hear these kinds of names in the SEO industry like, oh, I'm an SEO guru or I'm an SEO rockstar. That to me is just absolute poison for the growth of the industry. Back at Healthline, I was trying to introduce SEO to the entire organization. They were a tiny startup. They were taking on WebMD, which was the 800-pound gorilla in the category. Here we are, we're a tiny little team of 30 people, and we need to go out there and get as much traffic as we possibly can as quickly as we can. The CEO brought me in. He's like, okay, I need you to give a presentation to our engineering team about SEO. And the first comment I got from my lead engineer was SEO is witchcraft. That was the start. Right. That was the starting point. And that represented, you know, his experience up to that point in his life. And I realized I was like, oh boy, I've got a lot of work to do. And a lot of that work is actually internal. It's about educating the organization that you are a part of. up leveling that entire team so that they can see, oh, wait, this isn't witchcraft. This is a series of repeatable steps that we could do. And if we do these repeatable steps, the products that we're so excited about building, what should we go out and make more money for the company? And that reflects really positively on my team and my career prospects and my bonus at the end of the year. And it's having those kinds of conversations that are ultimately about democratizing SEO within an organization. For me, overwhelmingly in my career, that is where I see value. That is where I deliver value. That's where I've been able to deliver the biggest step changes in an organization's SEO performance. It's about being that rising tide that lifts all the boats, educating your coworkers, connecting the work that you're asking them to do with things that are materially important to them. Most of the product managers that an SEO team has to, by definition, has to work in partnership with in order to build well-optimized products. That product and engineering team, they are driven by the P&L of that product. That product has financial expectations associated with it. If you can help them understand how this process that you're bringing them along to help you with helps them drive better financial performance, increases their own career prospects, ends up being a gold star on their resume. When you can start drawing those kinds of connections in an organization, all of a sudden SEO becomes not just possible, but something that you have allies everywhere looking to help you. And I know that's possible. I've seen it. I've done it. Unfortunately, I think a lot of the SEO industry pushes pretty hard in the other direction. They push towards this idea of like the lone genius who has all of this magical knowledge and only this person can gift the organization with the precise recipe for success. That's a load of nonsense in my experience.

Mike: Yeah, I mean, I think Mars from day one has pretty much been renowned as the organization trying to help ordinary people understand how to do SEO and probably trying to simplify it. I mean, do you have some examples of what you're doing today that's helping ordinary marketers actually contribute to SEO and get their web pages, their content ranking higher?

Ethan: Yeah, so one of the things that is that is very, very interesting to me that came out of the recent Google API leaked documents. Of course, there is a ton of technical depth and arcane stuff. And again, I think the industry at large sort of lionizes people who dive the deepest into all the technical arcana. And that's interesting. I'm glad those folks are out there. I'm glad they're doing what they do. But I think from my perspective, I have the humility in working with complex systems to realize that messing with one little part of a complex system doesn't mean you're just changing that one little part. It has cascading effects, right? I tend to want to zoom out and look for sort of large themes and larger levers that are available to us. And a couple of the things that came out of that where Moz has a long history in the marketplace of creating data products that are helpful to working SEOs, right? One aspect of the SEO world is big data and very big data, right? Moz has one of the best link indexes, you know, on the entire internet. I think we have 45 trillion URLs somewhere in there. Other providers may say, oh, we have 46 trillion URLs. OK, great. The point to me is not the number of URLs in your index. It's are you able to look at that massive set of data and look at the ecosystem that it applies to? and abstract out of that something that is simple and easy to understand and can actually be used by SEOs in their day-to-day work to help guide them in helpful directions. And so one of the examples of that, you know, Moz came out with our metric domain authority a long time ago in 2006. He was in response to a very visible and noticeable fact for anybody who spends any amount of time in a particular industry or a particular keyword space. And you will see over time that there are big, powerful domains in that particular space. And it just seems like the rules are applied to them differently some. They just don't get hit as hard by updates. They seem to have a little bit more latitude in the things that they can do. And so Moz created Domain Authority to point to this invisible thing that we could see in the field. Very promptly, Google, of course, came out and began denouncing it. And in sometimes very, very specific terms, we do not use domain authority. We don't have anything that's like a domain authority signal that we use in ranking in any way, shape or form. And then the Google API documents came out and we can now confirm Google does not use domain authority. Their metric is called site authority. It's like when I look at things like that, to me, that is an example of Moz taking all of this complexity, these trillions of links and abstracting out something that is simple and helpful for working SEOs. Similarly, just about a year ago, we launched a metric called brand authority because now we are seeing another dynamic in the search engine results. And that is that sites with a strong brand seem to be treated very differently than sites that do not have a strong brand. And this is actually something that Google has talked about quite openly for a very long time. One of the quotes that sticks out in my mind, this was back in 2008, Eric Schmidt, who was the CEO of Google at that time, said, brands are the solution, not the problem. Brands are how you sort out the cesspool. I was like, wow. It's rare that you get really clear, honest communication from a very senior professional in a very large company. And I thought that was just very clear and the honesty of it appealed to me, always stuck in my head. And so now as we're seeing that dynamic coming to life and brands do in fact appear to be being treated differently, we created this brand authority metric And we are now seeing inside the Google API leak documents that Google does in fact care very much how your brand does or doesn't show up as a brand inside search. This is especially seems to be especially related to how they evaluate sites for being impacted or not impacted by big algorithms like Panda. So That is yet another example in that same vein. And of course, as the Moz product continues to evolve, we're looking to use AI to help summarize some of these key features. Again, forget about the absolutely gigantic loads of data that we have to process to get to it. What is actionable for a working SEO when they're looking at a domain in a new field or looking at their client's domain, right? The client just hired them. It's like, hey, do an audit of our website. We're using AI to summarize the primary topics and secondary topics that are most associated with that domain. That is helpful to me as a working SEO professional when I'm looking at a new client's domain, when I'm looking at a competitor's domain. And now we see from the Google API leaks. Google cares very deeply about the topicality of your website to the extent that they have this metric called state radius, where they essentially, this gets very nasty. They create a vector embedding of the primary topic of your site, and then they measure what they call the site radius. So from that central topic that is most associated with your website's content, Every new piece of content that you launch, they literally measure the distance between that core topic and this new thing that you're talking about. So if you have a client, for example, and you know, most of their content is about pet care or whatever it is, and all of a sudden you see them starting to talk about a bunch of cryptocurrency related stuff on their, their editorial calendar, you're now in a position to sit down and say, Hey, let's talk about your content strategy as it relates to your core user base. Here's a very specific reason that you may not want to start wandering off topics so much. And so that is a sort of a summary of the way that we at Monaz are looking at this. It's not about the size of the data itself. It's about simplifying it. It's about extracting the insight and the signal out of it that helps make sense of all the complexity for our customers.

Mike: I love that. And I'm sure customers are going to be very happy. They don't have to understand metrics like site radius, particularly if they're not SEO specialists. I think looking forward, one of the things a lot of people, both SEO specialists, as well as non-specialist marketers like myself, we're all a little worried about generative AI search results and what's happening there. So on the page of search engines, they're trying to give you the answer that really you want to give by routing people to your own page on your website. So how do you see this impacting SEO in the future?

Ethan: Yeah, I mean, that is certainly an extremely hot topic. You know, at the moment, I think that the world is having generative AI shoved down our throats a little bit, because I believe If I look back over the last two years, to me, one of the most important developments in sort of what I've come to call the LLM wars, right, because you have these factions and they're, you know, they're these guys against the other guys and everybody's, everybody's very combative. One of the first shots fired in the LLM wars was back in February of 2003. And that was when Satya Nadella came out in that interview and promised to make Google dance, right? I'm going to make them dance. And that came across to me very weird. It was almost like a, like a schoolyard deer, right? But that sort of set the tone. It let Google know. Bing is going to be all in on this generative AI stuff. They're going to push it as hard as they can. And they're specifically doing it to take share from Google because in Satya's math, every single point of search share they take away from Google is worth a billion dollars to them as a business, right? That was one of the opening shots in the LLM wars. And ever since then, to me, Google has basically been on the back foot. They've had LLM technology for years and years and years. Why didn't they, why didn't they launch it ahead of OpenAI? Well, for perhaps to me, the most understandable reason possible, which is that unleashing large language models in an environment like search creates a heidel wave. of LLM spam that Google is going to have to fight. That is the nature of the technology. Sundar Pichai actually had a quote to that effect. He's like, oh yeah, anytime you have a massive new technology release like AI, it's going to affect the search ecosystem. And this one's a bit different. This one is just very focused on the meat and potatoes of the search industry, which is words on a page. And so to me, everything that has happened in the LLM war since then has basically been Google on their back foot. trying to number one, mitigate the obvious negative effects that LLM driven content would have on the search comments. But then also now that they have been dragged into the war, they must make it look like it was a strategic decision. Right. And so now all Google talks about is AI this, AI that. Oh, it's so wonderful. You know, their last earnings called, you know, Sundar is talking about, Oh, our users love AI overviews and it's better and better and better. That may be true in the aggregate. From my perspective, I don't know. I talked to everyday folks. I'm really curious about their reactions to things like, you know, large language models, every regular person that I've seen that I've shown a large language model to, to kind of like They're like, Oh, so it just makes up a bunch of words. Yeah, pretty much. Like you could do it in clever ways. I can, you know, tell it to make it, you know, uh, you know, made it right as a sonnet or, you know, make it a, you know, whatever. People don't seem very excited about it. Right. I don't think there has been a, you know, a killer app, certainly a consumer facing killer app in the space of LLMs yet. And so Google is going to continue representing that they love generative AI and everybody loves generative AI and they're going to give it to everybody. And I think in the background, you are going to see Google do what they should do as a business, which is focus on the business itself and how this new technology does or doesn't add to that business. So, for example, in, I think it was in May, right after they did sort of the big public release of AI Overviews, one guy was tracking the prevalence of AI Overviews based on the value of the AdWords market associated with that query. And what he found was that after the big AI Overviews public release, The prevalence of AI overviews in keyword markets where the average cost per click was $5 or more went down by 98%. Because of course it did, right? It's going to steal attention. It's going to steal clicks away from the money-making engine of Google. And so they're not going to make, they're not going to make a press release about that. But I think that if you are a careful observer of the search comments, I think you're going to see more and more of that. AI overviews are going to continue to feature, and especially in informational queries, the more you get towards transactional and commercial stuff, I think the less of it you're going to see over time.

Mike: Well, that's probably good news. Hopefully there's less for us to worry about than we all think. Another thing that's changed, I think this is really something that goes back to your description of the East Coast, West Coast differences, is that CMOs and marketing executives have really changed, and particularly the role of the CMOs changed quite dramatically in the last decade. So how do you see it going forward, Ethan?

Ethan: Well, I think the story, especially the chief marketing officer's role over the last 10 years, CMOs have been challenged. And by that, I mean, as of, I think this was maybe five years ago, so this may have changed, but directionally, I believe it's accurate. As of about five years ago, CMOs were the role with the shortest average tenure in the C-suite. Right. They get, they get booted out of the sea sleep for one reason or another, more than other, uh, chief, you know, chief executives do. And, and I believe that the reason for that is very straightforward. It is that marketing leaders are now expected to be revenue leaders back in the day, different rules, right? Different rules, marketing. in some organizations, especially very large organizations was just looked at as a cost center, right? It's like, Oh, we got to go out there. We got to spend the money. And everybody's heard the quote, Oh, we spend, you know, a hundred percent of our marketing budget, 50% of its wasted. Don't know which 50%. Ha ha ha. Well, that leads to the instability that we're seeing in the career path of a lot of CMOs. I have known that the classic tension that I see in large organizations is actually between the CMO and the chief sales officer who start smashing up head to head saying, well, the sales leader will say, hey, you give me that same million dollars you just gave to the CMO. I'm going to buy four Ferraris for our four biggest clients and I'm going to drive another $20 million in sales. What are you going to do? Right. Like they see exaggerated. Right. But you literally have those kinds of conversations in very large organizations. And so there has weirdly been a very, very consistent tension between marketing and sales. And I think that the future is pointing towards much more integration between those roles because in a properly functioning high-performance sales and marketing organization, those two functions fit together like hand in glove. They have to. They have to, right? You have to have good communication across those functions. You have to have, in some cases, service level agreements negotiated between those functions such that when marketing generates their marketing qualified leads, they are sent to a place in the sales, in the sales team where they know to look for them. And there is a specific expectation that those leads will be serviced in somewhere between five minutes and 30 minutes or maybe a day on the outside. But creating those structured partnerships such that that entire machine marketing, which is tasked with generating that sales pipeline, And then sales, which is taking that pipeline and turning it into close one revenue. You need to, you need that entire machine to flow smoothly. And that is the direction that I am seeing more and more organizations go. Marketing leaders are now expected to be revenue leaders.

Mike: You've given us some great insights and been incredibly generous with your time, Ethan. But before we go, we like to ask people a couple of quick questions. So the first one is, what's the best bit of marketing advice you've ever been given?

Ethan: The best bit of marketing advice I've ever been given? It's probably the simplest one. Talk to your customers. Talk to your customers. Like read feedback from your customer service folks, sit down with them, talk with your customer service folks, ask them how real human beings interact, what their problems are, what their pain points are, what their friction is, what they love about the product. But even that is secondhand. Actually set up a customer development process in your company where you are talking with real people on a regular basis. consolidating those insights and pushing them back out into other parts of the organization. There is nothing that is a replacement for literally talking with your customers, understanding how your product does or doesn't deliver value in their lives.

Mike: That's great. I think it's really, really important. The other question we ask our guests is really for the listeners who are embarking on their careers. So what would be your advice if you're talking to someone who maybe just graduated and was thinking of entering marketing as their career?

Ethan: Wow. Well, you know, I say one of the, one of the things that is becoming available now as the, the, you know, the internet, especially in all the tools related to the internet are maturing. Is that it used to be back in the day that in a lot of cases, in order to get valuable professional experience, you had to be part of a company for somebody had to hire you. And she had this weird chicken and the egg thing, right? I certainly had that coming out of college with a sports medicine degree, which is completely illegible to anybody in the corporate world. They couldn't care any less about it. And so trying to get my foot in the door at all, I figured out a way. And that was how I was able to start building those successes and stories that laddered up into my career. That was necessary 25 years ago. Today, You don't need that. You don't need permission. You don't need someone choosing you and saying, yes, we're hiring you for XYZ role to go out there and do marketing. Some of the most interesting and compelling folks are solopreneurs, they're freelancers. They have found a particular part of the world that fascinates them and they develop their marketing skills in order to in essentially in order to service their own natural fascination with a particular thing. That is a wonderful thing that the Internet has made possible that was never possible before. Got a colleague of mine years back who was, he was a talented web developer, but he wanted to, he wanted to do more. He wanted to build his career in marketing. The thing that he really loved doing was he was a music producer. He loved creating beats for hip hop. I was like, what you should do is create a course on how to create beats and then go out there and talk to people in the community and market that course and get your name out there. And that's exactly what he did. And he has a fantastic business today because he learned marketing as a way of connecting with people in an area that he was already passionately interested about. Any person, whether you've gone to college or not gone to college, you have that ability today, thanks to the internet. And that is an absolute game changer for what you can do.

Mike: That's amazing advice, Ethan. Thank you. Thank you again for your time and all your amazing insights. If anyone's listening to this, they'd like to get in contact or find out more about Moz and Stat, what would be the best place for them to go?

Ethan: Oh, sure. Of course. Our websites are the obvious point, Moz.com and GetStat.com. On Twitter, if you would like to connect with me, I'm at Ethan Hayes, that's E-T-H-A-N-H-A-Y-S, and my DMs are open. I'd love to hear from you.

Mike: Thank you, Ethan. That's perfect. And thanks for being a guest on the Marketing B2B Technology Podcast.

Ethan: It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes or on your favorite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at napierb2b.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

by Natasha Websdale

A Napier Podcast Interview with Suzi McNicholas at Johnson Controls

Suzi McNicholas, Director of Marketing for Residential & Light Commercial HVAC at Johnson Controls, discusses her career in B2B technology marketing. She talks about how marketing in the industrial sector has changed, the challenges of getting stakeholders to understand what marketing really is, and what B2B companies can learn from consumer marketing.

• Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
• Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
• Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com

About Johnson Controls

Johnson Controls transforms the environments where people live, work, learn and play. As a global leader in smart, healthy and sustainable buildings, Johnson Controls’ mission is to reimagine the performance of buildings to serve people, places and the planet.

Building on a history of nearly 140 years of innovation, Johnson Controls deliver the blueprint of the future for industries such as healthcare, schools, data centers, airports, stadiums, manufacturing and beyond through OpenBlue, a comprehensive digital offering.

About Suzi McNicholas

Suzi McNicholas is Director of Marketing for Residential & Light Commercial HVAC at Johnson Controls. She leads the marketing team to support new product introductions and integrated marketing campaigns.

She has a 25+ year career in progressive B2B marketing roles including digital marketing campaigns, lead generation, branding, public relations, new product introductions, content creation, events, communications, and budget management.  Prior to joining Johnson Controls, McNicholas built an integrated marketing team at Honeywell in the Industrial Safety Products division.

McNicholas holds a Bachelor of Arts in English from Presbyterian College in Clinton, SC and a Post-Graduate degree in English and American Literature from the University of Hull in England.  She currently resides in Charlotte, NC.

Time Stamps

[00:47.5] – Suzi discusses her 25+ year career in marketing.

[05:32.7] – What are the differences to marketing to a channel partner versus an end user?

[08:55.3] – How do you manage short term and long term goals? Suzi discusses.

[13:28.2] – Suzi discusses how audiences reliance on sales is shifting.

[15:31:9] – Suzi talks about what she sees being the biggest changes in marketing over the next five years.

[18:50.8] – Suzi shares some advice to those looking to get into marketing.

[19:58.8] – Suzi’s contact details.

Quotes

“Don’t get emotionally attached to the outcome because your budget’s going to get cut… maybe your campaign isn’t going the way you’d want it to… that’s ok, you’re going to learn from what’s happening… you’re going to spend a whole lot of time frustrated and upset if you’re emotionally attached to these outcomes.” Suzi McNicholas, Director of Marketing for Residential & Light Commercial HVAC at Johnson Controls.

“People aren’t going to buy until they’re ready, and that 70% of the time that they’re spending before reaching out is research.” Suzi McNicholas, Director of Marketing for Residential & Light Commercial HVAC at Johnson Controls.

Follow Suzi:

Suzi McNicholas on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/suzimcnicholas/

Johnson Controls website: https://www.johnsoncontrols.com/

Johnson Controls on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/johnson-controls/

Follow Mike:

Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/

Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/

Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.

Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Transcript: Interview with Suzi McNicholas at Johnson Controls

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Suzi McNicholas

Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today.

Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier today, I'm joined by Suzi McNicholas. Suzi's the marketing director of Ducted Systems, Residential Light and Commercial at Johnson Controls. Welcome to the podcast, Suzi.

Suzi: Thanks very much for having me.

Mike: It's great to have you on the podcast. What we like to do is get all guests to you know, give us a bit of an introduction and really tell us about themselves. So can you give us a little bit of background about your career and how you've got your current role?

Suzi: Sure. So I've been a B2B marketer for 28 years. The vast majority of them have been in industrial manufacturing.

Mike: What is it you like about industrial manufacturing that's got you to stay there because you've been in some other industries as well.

Suzi: Yeah, I like industrial manufacturing because I find it interesting to try to make things that may not be super exciting, really exciting. And it's also been unchallenging in that if you say the word industrial from a marketing perspective, it can sometimes imply, you know, this sort of old style thinking, you know, sort of like, oh, we have a new product. Let's make a brochure and go to a trade show. And it's very different now. And so bringing these environments into, you know, what you and I would consider modern marketing, is actually a lot of fun for me, and it's a great challenge.

Mike: And so tell us a little bit about this. You know, maybe not so exciting area working at the moment, ducted system. So is that HVAC type equipment?

Suzi: It is, yes, for residential, ultimately, our products go into people's homes and and also some light commercial up to, we call it up to 150 tons, so a variety of buildings might use our rooftop units.

Mike: And, you know, having moved into industrial systems, you mentioned that industrial as a category is seen maybe as being perhaps a little bit behind the times when it comes to marketing. I mean, do you think having experience in other sectors has really helped you move forward when you've moved into industrial.

Suzi: Yes, and in fact, I use consumer examples all the time when I'm educating my stakeholders and others in the business about what marketing really is. That's an ongoing challenge. I think for all marketers. I saw a meme once that said all marketing job descriptions should come with a bullet point that says, must be willing to spend at least 50% of your time explaining what marketing is to non marketers. So it's an ongoing conversation. You know, I'm constantly educating people on what marketing really is.

Mike: I mean, I couldn't agree more. I think it's super important, particularly within the organization, to explain what you're trying to do and what you're trying to achieve. I mean, one of the things you mentioned, and I think some of the listeners on the podcast who are very much B2B would have definitely picked up, was the fact that, you know, a lot of your products get sold to consumers. So I mean, presumably that's through a sales channel. So are you actually doing elements of consumer marketing, or is it really a pure B2B play?

Suzi: Well, we are not targeting the consumer ourselves directly, because we don't have the money or the resources to try to do that. So typically, we're two levels away from the actual consumer. We sell our equipment to distributors, and then the distributors then sell to the installers or dealers or contractors. Those are we use those words interchangeably. What we will do is provide assets that speak to the consumer and give those assets to the contractors so that then they can take that information and use it to market to their audience, which is the consumer, so we're sort of three layers away from the actual homeowner, but that's what we do, to try to empower the contractors to be more effective in their markets.

Mike: That's interesting. I mean, is the product? You know, perhaps the brand is more important to those installers, those contractors, because they're the guy's going to get a call if it breaks down, then maybe it is to consumers who don't feel able to differentiate. Is that a reasonable summary the market, or is it somewhat different?

Suzi: Yeah, that is a reasonable summary in general, and there are always exceptions, but I would say in general, consumers aren't researching the actual brand of the air conditioning unit that you're going to install. The consumer's primary concern is, is my contractor certified? Do they know what they're doing? You know, really, the consumer is just thinking, please make me comfortable in my home, right? That's really all they want. Just make sure it works and that my contractor knows what they're doing, and then I can go back to my contractor if I ever have. Issues or problems. We do get some homeowner inquiries directly on our website, but in in general, those are folks looking for support, not necessarily, you know, looking to speak to a salesperson about the actual unit. They use their contractors for that.

Mike: That makes a lot of sense. And so that's why, you know, in your role, it's very much B2Be but it's marketing to a channel, rather necessary marketing to an end user. Is that really different? You know, trying to persuade a channel partner to take a product rather than an end user? Or do you see it as being very similar?

Suzi: It's different because, particularly with the contractor, they want to know that they can install this product and it's going to work, right? They don't want to be called out to make repairs or change things. They want to sort of set it and forget it, right? So it's important to them that the quality is there, but also the serviceability. So how can they access if there is need for a repair? How easy is it to get into the unit? Things like that. These are the things that we think about when we're engineering the products themselves.

Mike: That makes a lot of sense. But looking at what you do, I mean, you're obviously somebody who's looked at integrated marketers across the whole of marketing, in many of your roles, what do you think the key is to creating campaigns that really work across, you know, multiple channels and multiple tactics?

Suzi: Well, first and foremost, you know, I think the mark of any great marketer is the ability to put yourself in the shoes of your target audience. So the message is critical, and I'm sure that's no surprise to anybody who is listening, from a marketing standpoint, right? The very essence of marketing is to try to create an emotional connection to the person doing the buying, but an integrated marketing campaign, once you get the message down and it's the right message for your target audience, in my mind, includes a mix of tactics, and you have to reach people in multiple ways. And for me, you know where they live is majority online these days, so it has to you have to hit them from every direction that you can. It has to be email, it has to be social, it has to be some digital advertising on the websites that your target audience may spend time on, even in our case, radio ads. If you think about those contractors who are out in their trucks all day long, right? They're they're listening to the radio. Radio works great for us, and to some extent, in person events, to kind of supplement those digital tactics. So I'd say marketing is more complex than it's ever been before. I mean, when I started, marketing was really advertising and nothing more, but that's when the internet was a baby. So to me, it's a mix of tactics. And then the other piece that's so critical is the technology. If you don't have the right tech stack, you can reach your audience, but measuring becomes very, very difficult, so it's important that you've got the right marketing automation platforms, that your website and landing pages have the right technology, so that you can kind of watch the user, you know, click on an ad from social and go to the landing page, and then what do they do next? And so on. So it's a it's the message, it's the mix of tactics, and it's having the right technology.

Mike: In my mind, that's fascinating. I mean, I love the example of, you know, radio advertising reaching your audience really well, because I think a lot of people wouldn't. They normally assume radio advertising is really pure consumer, but you've clearly got a market there that, as you say, is listening to radio a lot.

Suzi: Absolutely and even sometimes billboards, you know, we will provide the the asset, you know, needed the graphics and the design needed if somebody wants to put up a billboard in in their market. So, yeah, you know, every audience is, is different, and some tactics work with some audiences and others, not necessarily, but in our world, it's an interesting mix, for sure.

Mike: And does that mean you're continually experimenting and trying new tactics? I mean someone at some point must have said, Hey, we could try the radio. And I guess there was some pushback there. Is there always experimentation.

Suzi: Absolutely. And in fact, the most recent campaign that we ran was the first time that we actually added radio in, and it worked. And so it's it's great when you introduce these new sort of tactics and find out what works, but also important is what doesn't work. You know, there if a campaign isn't going the way that you want, that's okay, because you're still learning from it. Now you know kind of what not to do. So yes, we're always testing. We're always trying different things. It's important that you do that. And you know, with the way that technology is changing, I'm sure we'll be doing things in the next five years that we haven't even thought of yet.

Mike: That sounds really exciting. I mean, one, one question, you know, as a marketing leader, how do you balance this requirement for, you know, short term returns through lead generation, for example, and then this longer goal of building brand and establishing reputation. I mean, do you have an approach that lets you balance your activities and your budget?

Suzi: That's a great question. You know, all marketers go through this, right? We are to. Day more than ever before, forced to do more with less. And so, yes, it's an interesting balance. You know, leads are very, very important, and generating those leads are very important for us as marketers to be able to justify, you know, the work that we're doing. But we do also pepper in thought leadership and other types of, you know, content creation that we know will live for, you know, a year or more, let's say, on our website or somewhere on the internet that people can access. And those are the activities that I think help build the brand over time. Because when you when you focus on thought leadership, you're positioning yourself as an expert in your field, which we absolutely are, in our industry in particular, but it's a balance, particularly when you're trying to convince those who hold the purse strings to invest in something that may not be seen as direct lead generation, but more of a strategy for the Long Haul.

Mike: I mean, you're obviously not afraid to try things. I mean, you've mentioned radio. Are there any other sort of innovative campaigns you've run recently that have been, you know, particularly successful, or, you know, maybe leverage something new?

Suzi: So what I will say is, you know, we are doing what today, what I think you would define as, you know, standard integrating marketing campaigns. But I have been looking, I look all the time at the competition and see who's doing what out there that's different or new. And I will say that, while it's somewhat controversial, Tiktok is a very interesting marketing platform in my mind. Now, most people think of Tiktok as, you know, the fun dances, or, you know, whatever it may be. That's why I joined, right? Just to watch my kids do cute things. But I have done a little research, and there's a competitor that has a branch in Austria. I won't name them by name, but they they did a campaign over the holidays where they featured cartoon characters interacting with their products. And it was basically like Santa Claus and all the elves were interacting with their products, you know, around the holidays. So it was set with, you know, snow and there's a fireplace and there's a Christmas tree. And it was just an, a real interesting way to promote themselves, you know, in a seasonal type of campaign that people may not necessarily associate with HVAC or comfort, but if you think about it, you know, if you think about Christmas and the fireplace and the tree, you know this is kind of warm, cozy, very comfortable type of feel. So I just thought it was a very interesting way to engage with their target audience, you know, around the holidays in this kind of feel good way.

Mike: I love that. I think that's a great idea. And, you know, I think it's been really interesting, Suzi, because you've talked about a lot of things that I suspect other marketers in between would be quite afraid to try. So, you know, I really hope you've encouraged marketers to try something new, try something different. In terms of talking to you on the podcast, I'd really like to talk a little bit about some of the things that are changing in marketing and some of the trends. And in particular, we're seeing a lot of research that suggests that customers are spending less time talking to salespeople and more time interacting with marketing content with your industry, is that the case are you seeing the same thing? Are your contractors and your distributors spending less time with sales?

Suzi: Yes. And interestingly enough, I just recently saw a statistic that's relevant to this question, from a study in 2023 called the B2B buyer experience report that was published by a company called six cents. The statistic is that 70% of the buyer journey happens before the very first conversation, and it's 83% of the time that the first contact is initiated by the buyer. So what that tells me is people aren't going to buy until they're ready, and that 70% of the time that they're spending before they reach out is research, right? Think about it. As consumers, we behave in the very same way. Let's say you're going to buy a, you know, pick anything, you're going to buy a new camera. You're probably going to spend some time online, you know, researching and and looking at recommendations and referrals and things of that nature, it's exactly the same way in B2B, those, those lines between B2B and B to C are starting to blur a little bit. So, yes, that 70% is all marketing. It's the content that marketers put out on the web. You know, it's the trying to get, you know, our content in front of people on social or digital advertising or email, you know, that kind of thing. So, yes, that initial part is very, very important, because, again, they're 70% of the way through their buyers decision before they ever reach out to a salesperson. Yeah.

Mike: I think that's a great stat. And, you know, I wish a lot of people in charge of allocating budgets would recognize how important marketing was. You know, it's been a big trend, and I think covid has really impacted how much people want to talk with salespeople.

Suzi: Don't you absolutely, totally agree with you?

Mike: I mean, I think looking forward, I'm interested to know. You know, there's a lot of technology out there. Ai probably is the thing people talk about most, or I'm not sure it's the biggest thing. What do you think is going to be the biggest thing changing marketing in the next five years?

Suzi: I do think it's going to be AI, but I don't necessarily think that AI is going to take anybody's jobs away. I think that it will become a wonderful productivity tool for marketers to pull information down and help develop business cases for what it is that we are trying to do. So I see it as a I see it as a positive, even though I will tell you, personally, I'm still kicking the tires, and I'm not exactly sure how it's going to work, but we're looking into some of those platforms now as a company to determine, you know, which is the right one for us to start down this, you know, AI journey, if you will.

Mike: I mean, it is fascinating, and AI certainly is going to be a factor. It's gonna be interesting to see, I think, how it changes. I think we're all looking to try and wear that out at the moment. I mean, with this amount of change, how do you think the role of marketing leaders, and maybe your role particularly, is going to move over the you know, next few years?

Suzi: Well, I'm coming, I'm going to come back to my education piece. Because if you and I as marketers are kind of looking at this like not exactly sure how this is all going to play out, then I can assure you that anybody outside of marketing doesn't know. So it's going to be again that continuing education helping you know our stakeholders and leadership understand the benefits of it and how we will apply it. And there are some concerns around security when it comes to AI, you know, and making sure that whatever we upload that might be proprietary company information, you know, how does all of that work? These are some of the things that we are trying to work out now. So as a marketer, how this is going to impact me and my role is going to be twofold. It's going to be, you know, continuing that education and just adding one more topic to the level of marketing education that we have to give but also, how exactly are we going to use it? How will AI be kind of a helper or an assistant to me, these are the questions that I don't necessarily have answers to, but those are the two things that pop into my mind when you ask that question.

Mike: That's fascinating. I mean, it's been really interesting talking to you, and I'm aware you're very busy. So before you go, there's a couple of standard questions we'd like to ask everyone. So one of the things I'd like to say, you've given us lots of advice. But Suzi, what's the best marketing advice you've ever been given?

Suzi: Don't get emotionally attached to the outcome, because that you know your budget's going to get cut, right? And that's frustrating, right? And maybe your campaign isn't going the way that you want it to. And like I mentioned earlier, that's okay, too. You're going to learn from what's happening. And even with things like budget cuts, you know, it gets frustrating, and a project that you really want to do gets, you know, put on the back burner because of budget cuts, you're going to spend a whole lot of time frustrated and upset if you're emotionally attached to these outcomes. So in my mind, it's you got to roll with it. Things are changing all the time. Disappointments happen, so try to stay as objective as possible and do your job to the best of your ability.

Mike: I love it. That's great. The other question I want to ask you is, if you were talking to a young person about to embark on a career in marketing, what advice would you give them?

Suzi: The first thing I would say is, go for it. I love what I do. I think marketing is a fantastic career, and you have to be able to balance your sort of right part of your brain and your left part of your brain. So it gives you an opportunity to be really creative, which is the fun stuff, but then you also have to be able to look at the numbers and start to put that together in a way that can continually educate and convince your stakeholders that what you're doing works and that you are positively impacting revenue. So it's a balance between the creative side and the analytical side. So if you think you can do that, jump on in the water's warm.

Mike: That's awesome and a really positive way to end. I love that. I've really enjoyed our conversation, Suzi, I think particularly, I've loved the way you've talked about some very different tactics and had the courage to try those, and also talked about the importance of educating people about what you're trying to do in marketing, it's been really enjoyable getting to know you. So thank you very much. If people have any questions, you know what's the easiest way for them to contact you?

Suzi: Well, you can find me on. LinkedIn, it's Suzi, S, U, Z, I, and the last name is Mick, Nicholas, and that's m, c, and then the name Nicholas, N, I, C, H, O, L, A, S, and you'll find me. I'm currently employed at Johnson Controls, but we did just get sold. My business unit just got sold to Bosch, so we're in a transition period, but I'll be with Johnson Controls here for the next 10 to 12 months.

Mike: I think sounds like there's a whole new set of challenges for you to face over the next couple of years. I wish you the very best for that. Maybe we should have you on once you've made that transition to talk about it, that could be a great discussion. Suzi, thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Suzi: Thank you delighted to be here, and thanks again for your time. I appreciate it.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode, and if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes or on your favorite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at napierb2b.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

by Natasha Websdale

A Napier Podcast Interview with John Harrison - Schaffner

John Harrison, UK Managing Director and Global VP of Marketing at Schaffner, a global company specialising in providing solutions for EMC and power quality, joins the latest episode of the Marketing B2B Technology podcast.

In the episode, John discusses the challenges and benefits of balancing two job roles and emphasises the importance of aligning sales and marketing to strengthen the brand and drive sales. He believes in leading with a forward thinking approach, understanding customer needs, and staying ahead of industry trends, particularly in the niche area of EMC.

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• Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com

About Schaffner

Schaffner plays a vital role in building a sustainable future in the new era of electrification. Headquartered in Switzerland and with subsidiaries around the world, Schaffner is a global leader in electromagnetic solutions that ensure the efficient and reliable operation of electronic systems. The Schaffner Group are experts in EMC filter solutions, harmonic filters, electromagnetic components and electromagnetic solutions. Our passionate and knowledgeable employees empower our customers to develop reliable electronic devices and systems that meet compliance standards and deliver increased energy efficiency.

This is how we deliver…

MORE POWER TO YOU.

About John Harrison

John Harrison joined Schaffner in April 2022.  He is the UK MD and Global VP Marketing.  He has spent 25 years in the electronics industry primarily within the connector space for Molex.  John has extensive international experience having lived and worked across Europe and the US, covering a range of markets from Industrial to transportation.  His most recent experience prior to Schaffner was within the IOT space for Ramtech heading up their Global Marketing and Sales activities. John is passionate about EV and increasing speed of adoption across the globe.

Time Stamps

[00:43:0] – John provides some background to his career.

[03:30.8] – John discusses how he manages the demands of both the UK Managing Director role and Global VP of Marketing role.

[05:04:7] – John shares his views on whether he thinks marketing and sales should be closer together or not.

[06:05:2] – John talks about what he’s looking for from marketing to make the role of MD more successful.

[13:38:9] – John shares his approach of trying to get salespeople, marketing people and engineers working more closely.

[19:31:0] – John talks about how he sees his role changing with technology over the next five years.

[20:49:1] – John shares some advice to those looking to get into marketing.

Quotes

“Marketing and sales need to be closer together. The ultimate aim for both is to drive more customers and value for the brand. We need to focus on the customer’s needs, whether it’s through direct interaction or brand messaging.” John Harrison, UK Managing Director and Global VP of Marketing at Schaffner.

“From a sales perspective, it’s not just about leads. It’s about ensuring the brand is seen as a partner and thought leader, especially in specialised areas like EMC.” John Harrison, UK Managing Director and Global VP of Marketing at Schaffner.

“It’s crucial to put yourself in the customer’s shoes. If a piece of marketing material doesn’t resonate with the customer, it’s not effective. Marketing should be about creating content that truly addresses the customer’s needs.” John Harrison, UK Managing Director and Global VP of Marketing at Schaffner

Follow John:

John Harrison on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-harrison-3552ba14/

Schaffner website: https://www.schaffner.com/

Schaffner on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/schaffner-gruppe/

Follow Mike:

Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/

Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/

Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.

Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Transcript: Interview with John Harrison - Schaffner

Speakers: Mike Maynard, John Harrison

Mike: Thanks for listening to marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing.

Today, welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today I'm joined by John Harrison. John is the UK Managing Director and the global VP of Marketing for Schaffner. Welcome to podcast, John.

John: Thanks, Mike. It's great to be here.

Mike: It's great to have you on. And as always, you know, what we'd like to do is let you tell us a bit about your career and how you've got into the role that you're currently holding?

John: Yeah, well, it's a little bit of a long story, really, mate. I spent, you know, sort of early part of my career in sales at a connected company called Molex. I'm sure many of your listeners will be well aware of covering a number of customers across the UK. And you know, as we've been through the various sales cycles, you move from customer to customer or Market to Market, and so it's given me a really good, broad overview of what's happening in the marketplace, where the technologies are moving. And after, you know, around 10 years or so in those sorts of roles, I moved at the Netherlands for my first overseas role, where I was had my first sort of glimpses into marketing, more Industry Marketing, as opposed to corporate and brand marketing. And that was a military area, really quite a short term assignment before I moved up to Sweden, where I moved into more sales management and general management. Now there was really my first opportunity to run international teams, and that was something that I really enjoyed, being able to travel having a multicultural team. And it was really those, I guess, first couple of years, or first three, four years in those roles that really pointed me in the direction I wanted to sort of continue in my career. So I moved back to the UK to take on a larger European role at Molex, and before then going over to the US for a role within the industrial space. So that was a really interesting time of of not just my life, but my family's life, moving over there again, experiencing something different. And I think that's really the key to an interesting career. And to sort of build your experience is to try different things. Certainly not everything's going to go to plan, but it gives you the opportunity to try something different. I then moved back to Europe and left the industry briefly to work in a construction wireless company, and that's where I moved into a sales and marketing director role, and again, that gave me sort of the first insights into marketing agencies. We started to talk to them about, how could we promote our products, how could we build our brand across the industry? And that gave me really good experience in working with agencies, particularly in trying to find the right agency. I think that, you know, that's key, and that's been really good for our work with Napier. And next I moved to Schaffner, where I am now in my UK MD role, and I've taken on the global VP role.

Mike: So that's interesting. I mean, obviously, from an outsider, it sounds a bit like they had two jobs, and they gave them both to you, rather than necessarily having a single job that combined UK Managing Director and global VP. I mean, how do you manage to balance demands those two really quite different roles?

John: Yeah, well, interestingly, the original role I applied for was the UK MD role and chatter had been through a big rebranding exercise. Just as I started, I saw there was a huge opportunity for us to do more with the brand, and I'd sort of given some ideas and made my sort of voice heard. And the CEO at the time said, yeah, that's all that's that's great, John. So if you want to do something, then you go and do it. So the role for the VP role came sort of by accident, really, and it's something that I've, you know, I've really enjoyed, but to balance the two roles, it's really about priority. Of course, I have customers in my UK role, and I need to focus on those. First of all, they're paying the bills, but the VP of marketing role gives me an opportunity to really look a little bit more longer term. I'm also fortunate that I have a really good team in both areas that enables me to sort of have the time to focus on on both. And whereas they're doing the day to day activities. We also work, obviously, with our various partners and agencies, that enables me to have the time to think about what we're doing on a more strategic basis.

Mike: And presumably, if you do a good job in that VP of marketing role, it's actually going to make that UK MD role easier, because it will drive more sales.

John: Yes, exactly, and it gives me an opportunity to really see whether the things that we're doing in the marketing side are actually having an impact on the sales side.

Mike: I mean, that's interesting, because people talk a lot about this, this separation between marketing and sales. Is it your belief that marketing sales should be closer together, or do you think it's better running them separately?

John: I think that. To be closer together. And you know, if you think about what the ultimate aim for both activities, it's about customers. Maybe you know they're talking to customers in little different way. But ultimately, we need to drive, you know, more customers, more value for shasner and for any brand that in that matter, towards us. And that's about saying the right things, understanding the value that we bring, understanding problems, understanding the solutions, and whether that's in front of the customer, over a desk or over a design, or whether it's electronically, or thinking about the brand as a whole, the customer has to be the focus of all of that activity.

Mike: That's interesting, because I wonder what in your sales role, your more sales focused role, as MD, you're expecting from marketing? I mean, is it the classic, we want good leads? Is it we want the market to be interested in the products and be aware of them? I mean, what are you looking for from marketing to make that MD role more successful?

John: Well, the easy answer to that is, is leads. Everybody wants good leads. But that's not quite as simple as it seems. And often, if you put too much focus on lead activity, you can really potentially damage the brand. And over the long term, you know, if you're not putting out good, good assets, good content, then the leads won't come. So it's a careful balance. What I really want, as my UK MD hat on, is for customers to see the brand as a partner, as a thought leader, someone who really understands, in our case, EMC. So if our customers are thinking anything to do with EMC, we come to someone who knows about it, and that Schaffner, then I've done a good job with my other hat on my my VP of marketing hat. I mean,

Mike: it sounds like to summarize it, you want to be seen as a leader. You want people to to have you at the top of their list when they're thinking about a supplier for in schaffner's case, EMC,

John: yes, definitely. And if you think about EMC, it's quite a narrow field within electronics, and there aren't that many people who really understand EMC. So you know, our job is to really understand EMC to the highest level of detail and allow our customers to focus on what they do well, which is creating innovative new products and solutions for their customers. When it comes to EMC, we want them to say, I'm not so sure about EMC, let's go to Schaffner. They know what they're doing. We've seen the white papers. We've seen the articles. We know they understand EMC, let's bring them in to start to talk to them about solutions for our products and our solutions.

Mike: I love that. I think that's a really clear vision for marketing. So on the other side, you know, when you see problems, what do you think from a sales point of view, marketers tend to get wrong.

John: Sometimes it can sort of be over exaggerating. You know, where your expertise is. I think we need to be really, really careful. And we're lucky in some respects, because we're quite narrow in terms of our, you know, our market reach and the technology that we focus on. But if you're a larger organization, the challenge for me is, how do you, how do you really cover all of that without becoming just too sort of broad, then you lose that level of knowledge that you're trying to portray to the customer? I think that's one of the key, the key challenges. And I think the other one is around, around leads. You know, trying to focus too much on on leads, because, of course, that's what sales always wants. That's what I always want with my UK MD hat. But that's not always possible depending on the assets and the you know what you're working towards.

Mike: That's interesting. One of the things you know, we've seen with some other clients is people are talking about this research that they're showing. In general, customers are spending more time engaging with marketing materials and less time talking to sales. They talk to sales people later in that sales process. I mean, is that something you've seen at shafner, where people are relying more on content and less on talking to salespeople? And then how do you change that balance between marketing and sales to accommodate it?

John: Well, I think we've definitely seen that. I think we've spoken in the past. Mike, it's moved on in my early days. And as a salesperson, I was, I don't know like to use the font of all knowledge, but I had information. So customers would call me for information, for drawings, for specs, all of that is available now. So for salespeople, they don't have that advantage that that I had 20 years ago that people needed me. So I think from a marketing perspective, now, the challenge is to get people to view that content, and that's drawing people into the right places, whether that's through white papers or articles to pull them towards shafter.com in our state, or whether it's getting them to go to our distributors pages to look for parts, to understand what we're providing. So I think that's a different way of talking to customers now than we did 1520, years ago, even 10 years ago to that matter.

Mike: I mean, that's fascinating. I remember, you know, and some people know that I actually started engineer, then moved into sales. At one point, we had a line of displays, and there were literally less than 100 data books. For the whole of the UK, and working in technical sales, it was easy to get a meeting if someone's interested in the product, because that was the only way they're going to get the data to design it in. So I totally agree with you. I think, I think things have changed. It's interesting. You say it's now not a case of scarcity of data. There's there's just so much information out there. Getting attention is important. I mean, one of the things we see some clients doing is trying to apply, you know, perhaps more tactics associated with consumer marketing rather than B2B marketing. Do you see that happening and trying to get engagement that way with some products?

John: Yes, I think so. And that's definitely, definitely evolved when you think of B to C, it's as the name suggested the consumer, and as B2B, we're really now trying to think about the consumer within the within the B within the business. And so it's about, you know, for us, trying to build up and profiles or personas within those businesses so that we can start to talk them in the right way, just as you see in the B to C arena, where is very much a much more targeted approach, and that's you know what we're doing. So a good example would be, when we're looking at content that we're developing, we're going to do that for a design engineer, or maybe we're doing it for a for a purchasing manager. And those two things may be very different, clearly, if we're talking to a design engineer or a compliance engineer, but the level of technical content needs to be higher, whereas, from a procurement perspective, we're talking to a persona there, then maybe we look at, perhaps more, some of the commercial aspects about service support. You know how easy it is to get the parts, for example. So I think, you know, we're being much more focused and considerate around how we target those personas, just as the consumer companies do an excellent job, and we in the in the B2B space, need to really think about that. Now, that's really interesting.

Mike: It sounds like you're saying that it's not necessarily a case of just stealing ideas from the consumer sector, it's much more about rather than thinking you're talking to a business in the marketing, realizing that your marketing should be talking to a person. Is that, is that what you're saying?

John: Yes, yeah, exactly. But you know, behind every business, it's about people. And if you're in procurement, then the way that you're measured, rewarded, satisfied, is very different to someone who is within the engineering disciplines. So if you don't get that content right, you could get it very wrong. And perhaps back to your one of your earlier questions around, what can marketing get wrong is if you speak to that person in the wrong way, you could really damage that relationship, potentially, by giving them something that they certainly don't want, but also wasting a lot of time. And so we're really careful about the type of content that we put out there, where we're pushing it, and making sure that we, you know, we put ourselves in our audience's shoes, really, and provide them with something that brings real value to them.

Mike: That's great. I think that's excellent advice to anyone thinking about building campaigns, is think about the people you're talking to a little bit earlier. You talked about the need to get marketing and sales closer together, and you've also talked about the challenge of creating this highly technical content, which clearly is an engineering input. So do you have a way or an approach of trying to get these three groups, very different groups of salespeople, marketing people and engineers together and working, you know more closely

John: well, we don't really have a formal approach. It's almost, you could say it's almost like start of a joke, actually, isn't it that you've got sales people, technical people and marketers, you know, together in a room, and what happens? But for me, it's, it's about communication and and making sure that we understand what each of those stakeholders is is looking for. You know, clearly our more technical team are looking to provide high quality content. Our salespeople are looking for leads and for development of the brand. So how do we pull that together? So? So what we do within Schaffner and I've done in in other businesses, is before we start to talk about what we're going to do, we pull everyone together and to make sure we're all on the same page. So we're getting that feedback. It's also as we go through the process, communicating what's what's happening, so that sales aren't surprised that a content is going out, or where that content is being sent, and for our technical teams that they're involved, and that if we get questions and feedback from that content, that they're ready and able to answer that. So we try and provide the right people to the right point within those campaigns, but they all need to be talking together. I'm sure there are more formal ways of doing that, but within a business like ours, we go back to a much more simple route, which is that we just need to communicate and do that well, such a great solution for so many problems.

Mike: Just get people to talk together. I think that's a great solution. I mean, I guess as well. You know, we talked about the three groups that are marketing, sales and engineering, but there's almost like a fourth person coming in now, which is AI. What do you see the impact of AI being at the moment? And. Do you think it's going to just keep going and eating different functions, or do you think there's some pitfalls we need to be worried about?

John: Well, I think think about the positives are, you know, we talked about all of this data that's available. The ability of AI to be able to go through that data and pick out the best parts of that data and give you access to all of that data is huge. It's incredible that that's possible, and no human is able to do that on their own. That, you know, the concern, or the the challenge is it, it could become quite one dimensional. And then, potentially, if everyone has the same data and they're using the same AI algorithms, you essentially come up the same thing. So potentially, from a competitive standpoint, you know, we could all be talking roughly the same thing without a real difference in tone. And I think that's the key. And when I think back to what we're doing at Schaffner, we talked earlier about our leadership in EMC, that comes down to the people. So we want that to be more than one dimensional. We want it to be real people who really understand the subject in in depth, and it's about the nuances. And we also need that, not just from our technical people, also from our marketeers, so that when we create that content, it is a far more nuanced approach. You know, we've had conversations might before about AI and could AI, you know, write an article? Of course, it can, but it doesn't have that nuanced approach. And can become a little say me, and that's, you know, that's not good enough. It might be good enough for some, but it's not good enough for us, and we want to make sure that we're really stepping forward, that we're leading those conversations. And for me, AI, isn't that level yet, and maybe never will do, because there is that nuanced approach from from journalists or from our technical people that we need to get out there to our customers.

Mike: It's really interesting. I mean, one of the themes I've heard from you through this interview, John, is that it seems like you have this really clear vision that you have to be seen as the leader in the market, and that's where you'll be successful by having that leadership, not by seeing as being seen as being good, but by being seen as being seen as being the best and the most innovative and the most thoughtful, is that a fair reflection of your vision?

John: Yes, yeah. And that comes down to very much how, you know, Schaffner has been built up over the years, and that has been to be the leader in EMC. And I think if you talk to most EMC say, experts or EMC engineers, Schaffner is extremely well known. And if is there as the leader. So, you know, we take that very seriously. So we're, we're always working to try and find out what's what's coming next, and we've, we've done that over the last number of years, particularly when we look at campaigns, you know, looking at what's happening in the market, where are regulations going? And that's a different conversation around what products do we have? It's about where the regulations going and how does that impact our customers and our market. And that's really where we can add value as we move forward.

Mike: That's very insightful, and I've certainly seen it working with Schaffner, where we've had conversations about topics. And the question has obviously from us as agency, been what does this mean to customers today? And the answer quite often is, well, really today doesn't mean very much, but if customers aren't thinking about it, then it's going to be a big problem tomorrow. I love that, that forward thinking approach you've taken,

John: yeah, and I think that that's absolutely key. There's, you know, there's lots of people making similar products to us, but what they don't have is that real, in depth understanding of EMC, not working on the committees, understanding where those regulations are going because those regulations, you know, may seem a little way off, but they'll soon come up. And design cycles are quite long in in our industry, particularly in industrial and it needs to be right. So, you know, the question we ask ourselves is, how can we help our customers navigate through those regulations? Be that sort of level of expertise to help them, support them through that. We may not know all the answers all of the time, but we can start that conversation. We can start to work through that, and that's what we do with our key customers, and how we start to get that information out of the market. Also provides a lot of really good feedback, you know, our customers hearing about this, and in many cases, they're not. And then we can start to tailor the content to support the questions that we get back from customers.

Mike: That's fascinating, and it's certainly been a, I think, a great approach for Schaffner, talking about looking towards the future. I'm interested. How do you see the role of CMOs and VPs of marketing, and perhaps even your role changing with technology over the next five years?

John: Well, I think it's going back to our AI discussion, actually, that sort of cmo VP market, to anyone in marketing for that matter, it's going to be about understanding more about the technology. What does that bring us, in terms of the benefits, but also not falling into those pitfalls where you just take everything into into an AI bot and it create everything for you, because that's not the answer. So I think it's about understanding that technology and working with people that understand the technology so that you can use it for the benefit of what you want to achieve. You know, we know that it can take huge amounts of data and collate that and give you access to the answers within in that data, it doesn't mean everything. Has to be done that way. And you know, the challenge for for us, and I think for everyone in marketing, is, where does it fit? It's not about replacing everybody, you know, with a with an AI tool. It's about using it in the best way so that that valuable skills of marketeers can be focused on in the areas where they bring the most value.

Mike: I think that's that's a really positive view for marketing in general and the opportunities there. I mean, one of the questions we always like to ask guests is about people starting in marketing, and what would be your advice to someone who's just starting a career in marketing?

John: I guess good luck would be the first, the first thing. But ultimately, for me, I think it's about, you know, starting to get a broader, broad understanding of what marketing is, and putting yourselves in in the customer's shoe. Because when, when you start to sort of look in the mirror a little bit and and start to think about what you're creating, what you're doing, and why you're doing it, and the value that the customer will have, I think then you'll become a better marketeer. There's plenty of opportunities to create really fancy content, but if you're if your customer, you know your consumer is not interested in that, doesn't matter how good it is, you know they're not going to engage with that. So I think it's really sitting down and talking to customers about what they want. So you can then develop that content. And I think the opportunities in marketing are huge, and there's also that ability to be a little bit more creative than some roles and and for me, marketing should be exciting. It shouldn't be just all about process. Of course, we need good processes, but if you can't, if there isn't a little bit of edge or a little bit of excitement, then marketing's not really working. I think, you know, within the within the company, you want at least one department to be really enthusiastic about what's going on in the business, you know, really banging the drum. And that's what I see marketing, you know, should be doing that's not just external that's internal marketing, getting everyone on the same page, enthused about what we're doing as an organization, and having a bit of excitement. So I think, I think it's a great career path for anyone. I think it also leads into other areas, potentially, if you're good at marketing, then there's a likelihood that you've got good communication skills. So that lends itself to, you know, to management and many other areas, you know, within business, so, and, of course, sales itself. So I think a great opportunity for anyone and marketing is only going one way. I think I think up, even though we talk about AI that's just one element of it that's great.

Mike: And obviously, potentially the opportunity to end up with two job titles in one?

John: Yes, you know, two, two job titles and just one salary.

Mike: That's the last question I've got for you. You know, you've obviously had a long career in marketing. You've worked with with a lot of different people. I'm interested to know, from your point of view, what's the best piece of marketing advice that's ever been given to you?

John: Well, I think I sort of mentioned it earlier, and that's about putting yourself in your customers shoes. When you sit, you know, in your home office or the office and you see a piece of material coming through, and if your immediate reaction is I'm going to delete that, that's where you need to be. Thinking as a marketeer, can I get someone to open that that email? How can I get someone to click on that page, on the website, or that news story? That's what you need to be thinking about. And it doesn't matter how good it looks, but it needs to be right for the audience. And we talked about personas, we talked about knowing who your customers are, and if your customers are all technical, then you need to create more technical content. There's no point. It being very, sort of fluffy, I suppose, commercially based. And the same is true the other way. So I think, I think that's really key, perhaps for any you know, you go back to the last question about someone starting out in marketing, you know, I'd recommend anyone who's starting out in marketing is to get out and talk to their own customers. What are they interested in? Because if you understand that you've got a better chance that what you're doing is going to hit the mark, and that's absolutely key for me,

Mike: John, this has been a fascinating interview. I feel like I could ask you another 100 questions here. It's been been really enjoyable. But I'd just like to say, you know, thank you so much for being so generous with your time and with your knowledge, and thanks for being a guest on the podcast. No thanks, Mike.

John: It's always good to talk

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode, and if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes or on your favorite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at napierb2b.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

by Natasha Websdale

A Napier Podcast Interview with Thomas Lewis – Semiconductor Marketing Leader

Thomas Lewis, an experienced semiconductor marketing leader explores the challenges of building integrated marketing campaigns in technical industries and shares his advice on building strong working relationships with engineers.

Thomas also explores the industry's current focus on sustainability and the potential pitfalls of greenwashing, what B2B and B2C marketers can learn from each other, and offers his insights on the changing role of CMOs.

• ‎Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
• Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
• Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com

About Thomas Lewis

Thomas Lewis is a seasoned marketing leader with over 28 years working in the semiconductor industry. He has a unique background which has afforded him first-hand experience in sales, business unit leadership, and marketing. Thomas believes in the power of data-directed marketing with a proven track record to support his “ALL IN” approach to creating, developing, and sustaining highly successful campaigns and teams.

His background includes impactful roles at Texas Instruments and Analog Devices and career opportunities such as launching a global pricing process, living abroad as an expatriate, leading engineering teams and directing multi-channel marketing campaigns.

Time Stamps

[00:45:2] – Thomas discusses his career in the semiconductor industry and why he chose that specialism.

[02:50:3] – How can not being an engineer actually be a benefit in technical roles?

[04:41:0] – Advice for building better integrated campaigns.

[09:22:8] – How can data break down silos between different teams?

[15:02:3] – Does B2B marketing lag behind B2C? How can we fix this?

[18:56:9] – The dangers of greenwashing.

[22:43.3] – The changing role of the CMO

[27:13.6] – Thomas shares some marketing advice.

[31:35.6] - Andrus's contact details.

Quotes

“Keep an open mind, ask more questions than you make statements. That's great advice for dealing with engineers.” Mike Maynard, Managing Director at Napier

“Data can really be used to drive our marketing decisions. It's not just gut feel of what could work. You can do something, you can measure it and you can adapt to the situation.” Thomas Lewis, Semiconductor Marketing Leader

“So, I do believe that adjectives have become the enemy of a really good marketer in the B2B space. To get precise in what you’re talking about has become incredibly important.” Thomas Lewis, Semiconductor Marketing Leader

Follow Thomas:

Thomas Lewis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomas-lewis-nhpoe/

Follow Mike:

Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/

Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/

Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.

Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Transcript: Interview with Thomas Lewis – Semiconductor Marketing Leader

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Thomas Lewis

Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today.

Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. I'm Mike Maynard, and today I'm joined by Thomas Lewis. Thomas is a semiconductor marketing professional, who's been in the industry for about 28 years. Welcome to the podcast. Thomas.

Thomas: Thank you for having me, Mike.

Mike: It's great to have you on. So what we'd like to do on the podcast is to let you really describe your background, give us a bio of what you've done. So do you want to tell me a little bit about your career? Sure.

Thomas: Every time someone introduces me or mentions 28 plus years, I always smile because it really truly has gone by in a blink. It's been a really wonderful experience, filled with so many different roles and nuances. I spent 26 years at Texas Instruments, and had the luxury of enjoying different roles that cover all four P's of marketing. And then the last few years I spent with analog devices and an integrated marketing role.

Mike: So you obviously like the semiconductor industry? I mean, what is it about semiconductors that you know, has made you stick there for your career?

Thomas: That's a really good question. The first thing I would say is coming out of school, I researched what different industries I wanted to potentially look at. Different than a lot of my colleagues, I didn't look at roles. I looked at companies and industries. I was very fortunate, I picked a hot one, I got lucky. And during that time, what I've come to appreciate about the industry. It's a little cliche, Mike, but I've learned to love working with engineers. There's a very famous cartoon strip that most people know Dilbert. And it depicts that tension between engineers, and sales, and marketing. Typically, marketing is poked fun at a lot in this industry. For good reason. Engineers love data. And I've always had a love for data myself. So I guess in one sentence, what I love about the industry so much is how data centric, it actually is. And that just appeals to who I am as a person. And I just have always really enjoyed working with engineers.

Mike: And that's interesting, because you're not actually an engineer yourself. Are you, Thomas?

Thomas: I am not. No.

Mike: Yeah, I find that amazing. We talked to a lot of people on the podcast, who are marketing professionals in engineering industries. And it does seem to be that not being an engineer can sometimes be an advantage. I mean, do you find that? Or do you find this real challenge understanding the technology,

Thomas: In certain ways, it can be an advantage, and in certain ways, it could be a disadvantage, and it really depends on the role. And honestly hope and you are helping your own mind is, so in my experience, being different, has been a benefit. It has really helped me to come into a room, one of the jokes on a team I worked at at TI was, well, if Thomas understands it, and can repeat it back, we know we've explained it well. Just to say that they had to really boil it down to something very simple for me without a W degree to get. And it really allowed us I believe, to make really good marketing collateral, because we we never assumed anything because I was in the room, it was always make sure we really explained the values, the benefits translated into into equipment benefits. And that's always been a good thing for us to your the second part of your question. It can be unless you ask a lot of questions. So I've also learned that you don't want to get into a data fight with an engineer, you're likely going to lose. Instead, go in slow, patient, ask a lot of questions, take breaks and say, Hey, let me get back to you. I understand you want to see the data of the return on this potential marketing investment? I need some time. So yes, as long as you keep an open mind and ask more questions than you make statements, you're probably going to be alright. If I keep an open mind, ask more questions, then he makes statements.

Mike: So that's great advice, I think for dealing with engineers. Moving towards your roles, I mean, your most recent role at analog was running integrated marketing. I'm really interested because a lot of companies struggle to integrate campaigns. Why do you think that is? Why do you think it's so difficult to build these integrated campaigns?

Thomas: I think there's probably about 20 different ways I can answer your question. There are a lot of challenges. I think first and foremost. How you organize I have come to appreciate is very important. Trying to have the owner of the budget and the owner of deciding what you do. Be together, I think that's really important. And with that said, you have to take your time and be very patient to get everyone on the same starting block on. Okay, we're going to do this campaign, what will success look like defining and getting everyone to agree that the purpose of doing this campaign is x, number of contacts, y number of impressions, z amount of backlog, whatever those things are that you want as a company, and being really patient and establishing alignment on that before you start running. And on top of all of that, I think, again, back to how you organize, do you have this integrated marketing function outside of the business units? Or does each business unit who typically owes the profit and loss do they have this role. And that's a really critical decision. There's pros and cons to each. If you don't have the two aligned, though, the issue quickly becomes, while you're asking me to pay for something that I don't fully control, right, that's the rub at the end of the day. And so when you find yourself in that situation, it's really difficult, because everyone's kind of jockeying for the relatively low percentage of budget and low percentage of chances of being selected for one of these major corporate campaigns. So taking the time to get everyone as close to as aligned as you can, I think is the key up front says

Mike: Interesting. So it sounds like what you're saying is, it's much more a matter of culture than it is of structure and process.

Thomas: Yes, I mean, the process, I don't want to brush over that when you said the word process, you've got my attention, because that is really important. These integrated campaigns, as you know, could be incredibly complex. If you're really using all the different channels at your disposal, the timing of when you do this, compared to that and having, having that customer journey thought out before you start have it all, while the corticospinal is integrated, having an all managed well, that the processes are incredibly important. As soon as you said that, I'd have to say it's 60%, the former and 40% process, because if you don't have a good process, then it falls apart as well.

Mike: Great point, I love that. I mean, when you're building integrated campaigns as well, you tend to generate a lot more data than single channel campaigns. So do you have an approach to, you know, really building an understanding the data that you can then use to either optimize or analyze those campaigns.

Thomas: I think the really successful companies that running integrated marketing campaigns, or really even more simplistic product launches, is access to that data. And it's been surprising to me in my career. So I finished up at Notre Dame just to back up a little bit, I finished with my MBA at Notre Dame concentration and database marketing. And when I came into TI, I fully expected a row. I mean, it's an engineering company, right? I just expected there to be data at my fingertips and dashboards and things that do exist today, but didn't exist that and seeing that develop over time and get more and more robust and seeing companies invest in that. I like to say to any body I'm talking to my fields, are not saying question, what data do you have? What things do you learn, these are linked my friends and colleagues in different industries, and maybe same industry different company, because I really liked to see how the data capture and analysis is evolving over time, and to make sure that I'm not losing touch on some new way of looking at things? And to answer your question, I do believe it always comes back to did you define upfront what success looks like and create your, your dashboard, whatever you want to call it upfront and say this is the data we're going to track. This is the source. We know we believe in the source. We've done our homework, we're sure that this data is accurate. And it is measuring what we want. So I hope I answered your question. Their data gets me excited to ramble sometimes.

Mike: I think you did I love the discussion about making data available. I mean, do you think the emergence of having a lot more data actually is one of the ways that marketers can break down silos between different channels and maybe even between marketing and sales?

Thomas: Those listening can't see how hard I was shaking my head, Mike, but it's honestly the number one way to connect the three teams that can get siloed engineering, sales and marketing. And it's been interesting to me to see sometimes how people will fight really hard to not share their data. and it goes both ways. I've seen salespeople be like no way you're not getting access to, you know, who my top customers might be, or where my pipeline might already sit. And you'll also see the marketers be like, No, I'm not gonna let you see how many new contacts we got at this trade show. It's an interesting and I, for life of me, I don't understand where it really comes from, we're all wearing the same badge of the company we're working for. But there's this natural inclination to be siloed, to protect your own data. And when they merge, that's when magic happens. Because it allows you to follow the customer journey from the beginning to the end, they didn't even know we existed as a company. And now they're buying product, what was their journey? And can we replicate that over and over and over again. And the only way that's possible, is if everyone's open to sharing all of their data to one another. And to your point, it results in putting the all those people in a room and giving them something to really focus and talk about, like, look at that. That's interesting. That's

Mike: 

fascinating. And you talked about, you know, being able to see that entire customer journey. I think one of the things a lot of marketers in B2B struggle with is, you know, balancing the need to generate leads, short term new business, versus building a strong brand. And particularly when data comes in, it's much easier to measure the bottom of the funnel activities, and it is in terms of the brand building. So how do you balance those two things when you're running campaigns?

Thomas: One of the things that is really starting to, I believe, take off and be looked at to this brand question, and it is a really good one is measuring your net promoter score your NPS. And there's a colleague of mine, that analog, I'll give him a free shout out Peter busy, he's, he's a leader in his field. And he really opened my eyes to the ability to actually measure, I guess I sought to put it in air quotes to measure your brand effectiveness in the way that you are actually going about it right is this the simplest question is, would you promote our solutions to a colleague at a different company? Now who work at Company A, would you tell some a company B, you should really go work with analog, they're great. That's the best kind of marketing there is. Right? That's a genuine customer to customer promotion. And it's a it's incredibly valuable. So it's starting to change, we're starting to as at least inside of semiconductor, I believe some industries have been doing this for a while. And so semiconductor is a little bit late to this game. But starting to capture that is as good a proxy, I believe, as we can grab on, what is our our brand equity, what is our brand ROI? So it's starting to change? But it's still a good question. And it's always a balance, you have to have an easy brand. It's identifiable at a corporate level, you need to say Texas Instruments and whatever 10 words come to mind. And at the same point, you've got to sell widget. 12378, you know, so it is this constant balance and fight. Because if you don't have one, you really can't do the other they it's a handshake.

Mike: Yeah, I think yes. Is a an interesting scoring. One of the big problems is is MPs varies quite widely from industry to industry. So how did you deal with, you know, setting a target for MPs? Or did you look more at the trend of whether it was improving or getting worse?

Thomas: Yeah, it's more than directionally correct. And the real nuggets, though, Mike, the real nuggets are down in the comments. They're really deep into the survey where an engineer at your customer will open up and say, this was the moment where I decided that, you know, I'm gonna go with you, or do you really helped. And then, of course, the opposite. This is the moment I decided to walk away and go somewhere different. That's where you really get, you know, the juicy bits, by the way, they can bring sales back to the table, because sometimes it will be comments about, you know, application support or something that sales directly controls or influences. And so that can get them back to the table as well.

Mike: I think I've seen right, I mean, I don't know if you know, we actually run NPS scores twice a year and APIA with our clients. We're currently running our, our survey at the moment, I always find it some of the most stressful times of the year because you almost take those people who wouldn't recommend you very personally. But you know, it's a really valuable metric. And I agree that it's not just the number you get and the trend. It's absolutely also the comments. Yeah. I'm interested, do you see trends in consumer that you've adopted or you think should be adopted in B2B? I mean, how do you feel B2B is doing his generally felt, perhaps unfairly that B2B lags? and humor in terms of innovation, there

Thomas: is that perception. And you know what, there is a little bit of truth to it, we have to step back and look at it and say there is some truth to it. I've seen in my experience, I don't want to emerge as the wrong expression, because there's certainly things you do in a B2C setting more often, or in some cases still only, whereas in B2B, you wouldn't and vice versa. However, I do see more of emerging more of a looking across the aisle, if you will, and saying, Okay, what are they doing over there? In our industry, the company that really started this right and got everyone to really start to analyze it more deeply was Intel. You know, their, their campaign and the way they went about things and using B2C concepts to create their brand image while complementing it with that, you know, end of funnel backlog acquisition. I mean, it was revolutionary, and no one had ever thought of it. And I think that opened everyone's eyes to not just the obvious things that we all can talk about when it comes to Intel, but the subtle techniques, and just, like I said, looking across the aisle, and I think the consumer side, did the reverse, they had the same thoughts like, Whoa, no, why can't we use some of these tactics that the FBI is using effectively and steal them? borrow them? adopt them? So I do see a merging of techniques today? Yeah.

Mike: Do you think also, sometimes, I mean, B2B gets a bad press, because a lot of B2B marketers are talking about their lead generation, the things that drive the money. Whereas if you look at consumer, you know, we all get to see the flashy TV adverts, we don't necessarily get to see the direct mail campaign that really sells the automobile or whatever else has been promoted.

Thomas: I think you're hitting on what's really behind this natural division that happened. And our reluctance to move, which is, marketers that go into B2C are typically the expression that comes to mind is the pure marketer, that the creative, the person that can come up with a great jingle or a great visual, or something like that. Whereas in B2B, it's more of the data nerds, like myself, I'm guilty of that. So a Berlin day is starting to happen. The B2C types are like, wow, like, yeah, okay, data can really be used to drive our marketing decisions. It's not just gut feel of what would work, you can do something, you can measure it, and you can adapt to the situation. And I think the opposite is happening in B2B, which is we're really good at this data stop. But of course, what our website as an example, looks like visually is very important. You can just look at the semiconductor industry, evolution of the web pages over time, they used to be so data rich that it was almost like the internet was a data sheet, it was to the point of being ridiculously funny. And today, you've got appealing visuals, the use of whitespace, you have all these things you've been in B2C has always existed. So I think there was a natural tendency for the data folks to head the B2B path and the quote, unquote, create creative types that had the B2C route. And we're now seeing, we need the diversity of both to really reach top performance.

Mike: That's an amazing summary. Thomas, I think it's a really good point that, you know, generally speaking, the geeks tend to gravitate towards B2B and the creatives go to B to C. One of the things that, that we're seeing at the moment, which I think is, you know, pretty consistent across both B2B and B2C is the importance of sustainability. I mean, how do you see that impacting B2B? And and particularly, you know, do you see some of the legislation coming in and really forcing the hand of some of these B2B companies to be much more proactive about their sustainability credentials?

Thomas: This is one of the top I mean, certainly in the top 10, maybe top five topics in the industry, and I'm glad you brought it up. It's obviously really important for our planet, everyone agrees on that. And any manufacturing industry needs to answer the question of what impact are you having on the environment. And this all speaks to at the end of the day, your your brand image no one wants to work with. So thinking about our customers, the second be in the B2B. No one wants to be working with someone that's seen as impacting the environment negatively that's or any other negative activity. It's it's kind of like in the B2C world, when maybe you have a celebrity do something naughty in his private life, and they drop him instantly, right? You just don't want to be associated with someone who's doing something that gets gets judged that way. So this sustainability question. I think it's table stakes to not be seen as bad. Everyone is doing that fairly well, making sure that they're showing at least the perception of a genuine concern for what's going on. And some companies have really embraced this and are truly making it part of their their DNA. I think the term is greenwashing. It's not just talking about it, it's fundamentally changing the way you say things, it's almost the only analogy I can think of that I've recently run into as well myself, is if you're in the medical field, and you're marketing, you have to be incredibly careful in what you say every word choice can get you in legal trouble. And I think that starting to happen in the sustainability world here, you crashing legislation coming in and saying, if you're going to make these claims, you have to really be able to back them up. And the best companies are taking that mentality, and extending it across everything. I love it when I walk into a room and an engineer will say something like, this is the most efficient solution we've ever had. And they're expecting me as the marketer to like, love that sentence. And I hate it. My typical response is I'll say something like, you know, I know I'm a marketer, but I really hate adjectives. Can we really talk about the actual performance and how you measured it? And how are how are you saying it's more efficient. So I do believe that adjectives have become the enemy of a really good marketer in the B2B space. And to get really precise, in what you're talking about has become incredibly important, documenting it and being able to prove your claims has become not quite the medical field realm yet, but it's leaning that way.

Mike:  think is really interesting. I mean, even worse, you see a lot of press releases, still in B2B that have relative comparisons with nothing to compare against. So you know, the new product is more efficient, more cost effective, but more efficient, more cost effective than what?

Thomas: That's right. And that goes to the whole conversation explaining in that press release, or at least providing a link from it. Because sometimes it can get to really go into the details. A lot of people be like, Whoa, this is too much for this particular medium, but including in the press release to learn more here. And then that's where you wouldn't really explain how did you measure this? What were the operating conditions? And what are you comparing it to you directly?

Mike: I have a great point. I'd like to switch gears a bit now Thomas and look a bit towards the future. So the role of you know marketing executives, marketing directors, CMOs, you know, seems to be changing the number of channels is changing. How do you see that role evolving over the next five years?

Thomas: Mike, of my 28 years of experience in this industry, and in this career path has taught me one thing, it's I'm really bad at predicting the future. But I'll try to answer your question this way. I think the trends we're seeing towards the use of data, the need to be accurate in what you say. It leads to credibility in what you say. But one of the things that would be in the Dilbert cartoons all the time, right is making fun of marketers who would make these outrageous claims. And I think the world has pushed back on that. I also think that's has been the enemy of sales, marketing. And the business units that come together, is this belief that marketing people live in outer space and make these outrageous claims and the closer we get, and the more we push towards all of those things are important. So to your question, I believe, in today's world, if you want to be an upper level executive, so director, certainly CMO, you need to embrace the need to be able to analyze data, you can no longer be just a creative, you're gonna have the most creative mind ever create the most amazing images and things like that. But to lead a team, you need to attach what you're doing to the goals of the company, and that it just requires data. So I think the number one change that's happening is your upper executives becoming more and more comfortable in opening up a tableau worksheet and digging into it and saying, Okay, this is what we need to do as a team in providing direction, as opposed to counting on the team, the subordinates to do that. There needs to be a willingness at the upper levels to dig into the data and own it and drive it. That's where you see the most success. That's where I've seen the most success is where the that's the embrace of the upper leaders.

Mike: I love that. And I think that's really interesting when you have, you know, a lot of people pushing these rather simplistic management dashboards, because actually, what you're saying is engaging with the data and understanding it really matters rather than just seeing whether the number is red or green.

Thomas: Correct in real time. And so, if you take snapshots like quarterly, which is very common, right, so cool. quarterly, we're going to look at this. The issue with that is sometimes I mean, so using the Six Sigma philosophy, right? If all you do is look at the summary data quarterly, you could miss a really golden nugget that was a quote unquote outlier. That happened in the month of February on the 14th. Right? You've just missed it, because you're only looking at it. Before a big management review before the big quarterly business reviews, and engaging with the data is a very different life. It's every day pulling up a dashboard, and looking at what happened yesterday. Is there anything in here that I can take and adjust my campaign and do? And again, that's what the best companies do? Is this constant attention to it? And it's like a muscle. Some folks say, does it take a lot of time, it well, in the beginning to set it up? It sure does. But once it's often running, I would come in every day, and pull up my dash, we'll call it a dashboard. But again, it was interactive, I could jump around and change different selections and look at different things. But I was been 20 minutes, roughly, looking at the data, it invariably I would find something and be like, wow, wow, I didn't expect that. Or yes, that's exactly what I expected. Either one, and then go to the team, talk about it and adjust what we're doing just slightly, you know, engineers like to talk about big innovation, or the small little innovations, everything marketing needs to have that same kind of approach. You know, one of the hot topics you and I were discussing before this call is AI. That's a major point of innovation right now, in the marketing world. But little innovations happen when you're living in the data every day. It never shows up as this big, huge difference. But it's that nice, directly Correct. Wow, our Bounce Rate got lower. How'd that happen? Well, we saw one little outlier that we would not have seen if we weren't living in the data.

Mike: That's amazing advice. I think that's emphasizes how important data is. I really appreciate you being so generous with your time, Thomas, before we finish, there's a couple of questions, we always like to ask everyone. So you've given us some amazing marketing advice. But I'm interested to know, what's the best marketing advice you've ever been given?

Thomas: When I was thinking about this podcast today, and you were nice enough to share some of the questions you might ask when I saw this one, I immediately smiled and I thought of, and I will definitely give a shout out. This is my very first boss in the semiconductor industry. He really shaped me in terms of who I am as a marketer and a person, his name is Mike Hastings. And he called me in and we were talking about something that had happened. And I said, well, that's just the perception. Mike is coming out of the marketers mouth, right? Mike looks me right in the eye. It says Thomas, perception is reality. And that person's mind. Perception is reality. And so that was the best piece of advice I ever got. Because it really was talking about empathy, the ability to empathize with someone because their perception is their reality, and you've got to meet them where they are. And if they think that I think this conversation Mike and I were having was about the effectiveness of doing a press release. And even though we were arguing for this particular purpose, the press release wasn't good. It wasn't the right channel to use, the person we were arguing with discussing with believed that that was the only way to get it done. And that was his reality in that moment. And we had to work to change his perception of a press release in order to just get off the dime, if you will. So that's the best advice I ever received. Perception is reality for that person.

Mike: I absolutely love it. That's fantastic advice. I'm sure I'll use that as well. The other question, you know, we're always interested to know is if you're talking to someone who's at the start of their career started a marketing career. What advice would you give them?

Thomas: If I could change your question just a little bit, I would take out the words marketing, career, meaning, or marketing, excuse me, anyone starting their career, I would give the same advice. It's one of my favorite expressions. I like uses. It's an acronym. And it's all in I like to say, and a lot of people say, are you all in? And this was recent. It was about a year ago that someone said that to me. What does that mean? When we say we're all in like, everyone thinks they know what that means? And they kind of like instinctively go, oh, yeah, I'm all in. I'm bought in, I get it. And what does it really mean? For me, it means the A stands for accountability. You have to be accountable as a team and an individual, for what you've done and how effective it was. Without that. Nothing can really get started. The second is loyalty. And it's both ways. It's between people. I've also heard expressions like, well, this is corporate America, and this is how things happen. For me, I'm corporate America, you are, you know, like all of us collectively. We are what makes up the culture of the place we're working. And so having loyalty to one another to the process. Last is of the first word is love, which, again, in business setting sounds a little strange, but it just means passion, interest, a genuine concern for the team doing well. And then N stands for inclusivity. Everyone talks about diversity they typically talk about in a very traditional sense, diversity of thought, is really what we're all after. And having multiple people in your team coming from different cultures, different experiences, and having a mind to receiving that is super important. So I would say anyone starting their career, those are the four factors you want to look for in an employer? Will they hold you accountable and hold themselves accountable? Do you think you can be loyal to them? And they'll be loyal to you? Do you think you're gonna love it? Do you think you're really gonna wake up every day and have that? Whatever it may be? 20% of us wake up and go, I can't wait. Can't wait to get in look at that marketing dashboard. And will they be inclusive? Will they give you a voice? Will they hear your voice? And will you hear there's because when all of that comes together, those the teams that I've been on where magic happens? You've exceed anything you ever thought that team could do. Those are the four building blocks, I believe,

Mike: What an amazing way to end an interview. I think that that's really great advice, and certainly useful for anyone starting any career. Thomas, I so appreciate your time and your insights. If people are listening, and I'd like to get in contact with you. What's the best way to get ahold of you?

Thomas: You can reach out to me on my LinkedIn profile. That's probably the best way to go about it. And I believe it's in H P. Oe is my username, I think but just look for Thomas Lewis, and analog devices or Texas Instruments. I should pop up.

Mike: Amazing. Thomas, thank you so much for being a guest on the podcast. I really appreciate it.

Thomas: Thank you, Mike. It was a pleasure.

Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes, or on your favorite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at Napier B2B dot com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

by Natasha Websdale

A Napier Podcast Interview with Masha Petrova - Nullspace

Masha Petrova, CEO of Nullspace, a simulation software company joins the latest episode of the Marketing B2B Technology podcast to share her journey from aspiring astronaut to engineering expert and marketing leader.

She delves into the importance of effective marketing when targeting technical audiences and discusses the challenges of mergers and acquisitions in the engineering software industry. The conversation also explores current engineering tools, the role of AI in accelerating technological advancements, and the need for efficient simulation software.

• ‎Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
• Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
• Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com

About Nullspace

Nullspace is a deep tech software company that develops products and solutions for RF and quantum computing applications across defense, aerospace, and automotive industries.

About Masha Petrova

Dr. Petrova is an experienced executive with a passion for leading multi-disciplinary global teams toward successful results by focusing on operations and creating a unified vision. After receiving her PhD in aerospace engineering, Dr. Petrova spent 15+ years in the engineering simulation and design software industry, including holding global marketing executive roles at Ansys, Altium, LLC, and MSC Software (during acquisition by Hexagon MI) as well as 3 simulation software start-ups all acquired by Ansys, Inc. in the last 10 years.

Time Stamps

[00:46:2] – Masha provides some background to her career and what led her to become CEO of Nullspace.

[01:50.2] - Masha discusses EDA and simulation tools.

[03:22:0] – Masha explains the impact of industry consolidation and acquisitions on marketers and CMOs.

[09:42:2] – Masha talks about how to balance the demands of wanting to get leads and drive sales quickly with the longer term goal of building a strong brand.

[18:34:9] – Masha discusses how she deals with the issue of sustainability and how she conveys Nullspace’s commitment to sustainability when talking to engineers

[24:52:3] – Masha gives her best advice to those entering a career in marketing.

[26:24:1] – Masha’s contact details.

Quotes

“Because of AI, there is a lot of acceleration in technology itself that's happening… but the tools that the engineers use are still kind of stuck in the past. These are still conservative tools that's been tested and validated for over 40, 30 years. So, it's like using a hammer to build a car or something like that.” - Masha Petrova, CEO of Nullspace.

"Measuring brand effectiveness is really hard. It's not like lead generation, where you can track from inception to a sales deal. With brand, it's much subtler, so we tracked our spend versus views, comments, and social media engagement to demonstrate interest in our content." - Masha Petrova, CEO of Nullspace.

Follow Masha:

Masha Petrova on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mashavpetrova/

Nullspace website: https://www.nullspaceinc.com/

Nullspace on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/nullspace-inc/

Follow Mike:

Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/

Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/

Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.

Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Transcript: Interview with Masha Petrova - Nullspace

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Masha Petrova

Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today. Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. I'm Mike Maynard and today I'm joined by Masha Petrova. Masha is the CEO of Nullspace. Welcome to the podcast, Masha.

Masha: Hi, Mike. So excited to be here.

Mike: It's great to have you on. So, what we like to do at the start is always get someone to talk a little bit about their career, and how they've got to where they are. So, can you tell me a little bit about your background, what you did, and what led you to become CEO Nullspace.

Masha: Sure. So, I am an engineer by background, my undergraduate was in mechanical engineering, and then I went ahead to get a PhD in aerospace engineering, I was going to be an astronaut, and then decided that I, I don't like risk that much. And Earth is a pretty exciting place to be. So, I got my PhD in Engineering and was a real engineer for about a year at a software startup. And then salespeople realized at that company that I was too extroverted to sit in front of a computer and kind of suck me into customer conversations. And I love that so much and fell in the world of sales and marketing and became head of marketing, but always in a very deeply technical engineering space.

Mike: I used to be an engineer as well. I think I got moved into sales and marketing, because I wasn't very good at engineering.

Masha: That's not true. You're probably too extroverted as well.

Mike: So, your background, you've been through a number of different companies, one of the areas I think you've been focused on has been, you know, electronic design tools. EDA, is that correct?

Masha: That's been one of the areas. Yeah, so my focus, where I've headed up marketing was a span of engineering software. And that's been EDA was one of the areas but also simulation of a wide variety type of application. So, engineering simulation, and now I actually head up a company called Nullspace, that develops stimulation software for electrical engineers as well. So engineers, developing antennas, radars, various RF devices, they need to test those devices, right as they're designing them to make sure the device is performing properly, your phone, spearing with the antenna on your whatever it is your ATV, your vehicle, your smartwatch, and so on properly, in order to do that, engineers test those RF devices and computer through simulation by doing an electromagnetic simulation or running electromagnetic simulation with tools like tools from an old space.

Mike: That’s fascinating, because, you know, you're obviously selling to a very technical audience, I think something similar to a lot of our listeners.

Masha: Yes, very highly tech. I mean, it's highly technical as you can get PhD, you know, electrical engineers and RF engineers. Yes.

Mike: Before we really delve into what you do at Nullspace, and how you approach marketing to these engineers, one of the things I know about the simulation and EDA industry is there's been a lot of consolidation or acquisition. And I think you've been through quite a few acquisitions, both for being on the acquiring side and also being acquired. How do you feel that impacts marketers and CMOS?

Masha: Yeah, that's very true. And I'm happy to talk about that. One note, just an interesting industry shift that I have been watching, I've been in the space of engineering software for the last 20 years or so. And we really haven't seen that much acquisition has been pretty conservative, slow-moving space, for the most part. You're an engineer, it's very exciting. If you're not you don't know what these companies are probably never heard of them. The ones that develop engineering tools and engineering software, but they are these kinds of companies. And this kind of software is key to developing any new technology, whether it's a car or plane train, any kind of technology, device, computer, smartwatch, smart tick, whatever it is, right, like anything you think of in terms of technologies, some engineer somewhere designed it. And to design it, they needed engineering tools. They didn't do it with the sketch paper, maybe initially, but at some point, they transferred it to a computer, and then needed to design and simulate that thing that they're designing in a computer. So, there's this whole space of companies that develop engineering tools that have been pretty, pretty conservative, non eventful, very slow growing, but kind of trucking along. And in ALEKS, the last six months or so there. You right, there has been quite a consolidation and m&a activity in the space of engineering tools, because we're seeing because of AI, there is a lot of solar acceleration in technology itself. That's happening overall, right? Again, any kind of technologies that you could think of from a plane to a satellite to a spaceship to a smartwatch to, you know, AI chip itself. All of that is being accelerated, but the tools that the engineer’s users still kind of stuck in it. Ask these are so conservative tools that has been tested and validated for over, you know, 40 30 years. So, it's like using a hammer to build a car or something like that. And so there has been a lot of acquisition activity, because the industry leaders are realizing like, hey, these engineering tools are super important, and technology is being accelerated. And so, more and more engineers will need more and more of these tools. So, this one, though, I wanted to make, like this m&a activity has been pretty new to our engineering tool space. And then as far as your question of kind of my thoughts or observations on being in an acquisition, so I have been through a total, I want to say six acquisitions, where being the I was the head of marketing, either VP or CMO on the small company side that being acquired, as well as being the head of marketing and a large company side and acquiring small company, having to assimilate all the marketing and all everything that goes through that. And if you've ever run marketing, whether you're just ran a marketing department, or ran the whole entire marketing team, and either been acquired or had to assimilate, like the Borg, that from Star Trek, the acquiring company, you know that that could be quite a bit of a headache, because you're dealing with? How do you kind of like, put the brands together properly? Are you just erasing the small brand? Because that happens quite often. And you're racing it as fast as possible? I've been through that kind of acquisition. Or are you sort of leaving the company alone and leaving the brand alone and it making it seem like, you know, things are going to run as is? And there's so much kind of thinking that has to go behind everything from the PowerPoint slides? And how do we present the branding there, right to training the sales team and giving the right talk tracks to kind of talking to both marketing teams and making sure they're working together. And a lot of times there's tension, because a lot of times a smaller company that's being acquired, they might have been around for a decade, and they might have had their own CMO or VP of marketing role kind of was the god of marketing in that company for a while. And now all of a sudden, they're almost irrelevant. That happens as well. How do you navigate that? So that's, there's a lot of really interesting topics that we can dive into on that side.

Mike: It’s interesting, I mean, the first thing is that this question of whether you keep the brand when you're acquiring or whether you basically assimilate into the acquirer’s brand. I mean, it seems like there's a difficult balance there, particularly, as you mentioned, that engineers can be quite conservative in what they buy when it comes to tools. And perhaps they want a brand they've known for 10 years, rather than wanting everything being, you know, merged into one, what's your view on that?

Masha: Yes, and that's been my experience in the space, for the most part, usually, that direction will come from the CEO, right, the CEO will kind of have an idea of what they want to do in terms of how closely do we want the brand to be sort of assimilated into the large, large brand. The idea right, in the engineering space, the tendency is to kind of leave the brand alone for a few years, and then just kind of slowly piece by piece. I mean, it takes a lot of times years, you know, five years or more to really kind of assimilate the technology in after the acquisition. And probably this time when I've seen a brand get, sort of, I don't want to say erased, because it sounds mean, but you know, minimize, should we say and not focused on as much is at a startup that was acquired that I was running, I was head of marketing, and the startup was acquired. And it wasn't around for very long, so the brand wasn't well known. And the branding was confusing, the naming of the tools was confusing. Also, when you're acquiring something from another country, like I remember, there was a company that I was a CMO at a larger company, we acquired a Japanese company, and one of the products was called pickles. It is a software product for engineers called pickles. You know, it's probably very cute in Japanese language, you know, or in that culture, which just didn't quite work. So, you know, we had to get rid of that pretty quickly, like within days. And then the other example that I was talking about where that was a smaller company that's being acquired. And it's just not a lot, there wasn't a lot of brand recognition. And it was easier to just kind of get the technology and fold it into the larger brand that's been around for a while.

Mike: It’s interesting. I mean, we've talked a lot about brand. And I think, you know, some people perceive that technical audiences by, you know, purely on features, but I think brand is super important. So, as a CMO, when you're marketing to engineers, how do you balance the demands of wanting to get leads and drive sales really quickly, with that longer term goal of building a strong brand?

Masha: That's a million-dollar question, right? I think for me, because I was an engineer myself for a while. I know that engineers being very conservative, they can smell BS very quickly. And so for me, my philosophy is build a brand that is built on trust as much as possible with engineers, which means you stick to facts as much as you possibly can, you know, you don't break that trust within with engineers as much as you possibly can, which means you can't move as fast can be as flashy as consumer space, for example, because consumers are much more forgiving much more, they'll take all kinds of BS, no offense to consumers. But if you compare, you know, engineers to just your main, middle of the road consumer, they'll forgive a lot more if you don't have all the facts straight, whereas engineers don't. And so, for me, it was always very important to have trust as the underlying side of things. So I will always push back because you always have that push for more leads, more leads, right sales always needs more leads, and getting stuff out there getting marketing campaigns out there, getting whatever webinars out there to just get more leads, I would always push back on that and try and make sure as much as possible, we're going back to like, will this break the trust of our customers or our engineers, as I think it's super important with technical audiences, and you just have to be really aware of that, especially if you're coming from consumer space and just know that the tolerance for intolerance for Bs and the tolerance for things that are not facts, is much lower in the space?

Mike: I think that's very true. I really like that point Masha. It's all about building trust and trust is built through basically being direct and being honest. I mean, do you think there are any elements of you know, consumer campaigns, you see, that can be used effectively to market for engineers? Or do you think you really have to take a fresh approach when you go to market such as specialist audience?

Masha: Oh, no, for sure. So, I would always look for innovation and marketing, I look to consumer space, for sure. Because there's really not much innovation in the enterprise space on the marketing side. Lots of innovation on the technical side, right. But marketing definitely lags as you probably know. So absolutely. consumer space is the kind of go to for, for inspiration for marketing. So, one of the things I've done, which was really interesting that I've adopted was, for example, product placement. So, product placement that's done quite frequently. And consumer marketing, and influencer marketing as well as engineering, software space are very technical enterprise space, at least a few years ago, that wasn't done at all. And so, I was at a company where I was very lucky. It was heading up brands, I was VP of brand marketing. And I did a project where we did many documentaries, where with our customers with engineers, where we kind of did many movies, we hired award winning filmmaker to do this, right. So, these were not testimonials. They were truly mini documentaries on our customers that were really interesting. And they took off like crazy, like, we got so much truck traction, I was a YouTube channel, that YouTube channel just blew up. Because they were really like really interesting informational, sometimes funny pieces of art, essentially right in many movies. But what we did there because it was not, we didn't do blatant testimonials, right? Like, the customers weren't supposed to talk about using our software. But we would have product placement, like we would have our software had a very distinct user interface. So, we would have our software with a distinct user interface. And like on a large computer, behind, you know, the engineer talking, we would do things like ship a bunch of branded mugs, T shirts, swag to the company before we went to film, right, and they would be holding a mug was the company's name, as they're talking about their own thing, not mentioning our company, by the name at all. So doing product placement was really cool. And that was a really cool way to kind of adopt a consumer marketing technique into our space that worked really, really well. I still don't see a lot of enterprise people doing that. Well, because I think engineers are very literal by nature. And so, for them, it's hard to understand how do you just how do you like, fit in a bunch of money on the marketing campaign, but don't actually talk about our product.

Mike: That's, I mean, that's very true. I love the concept. But as an engineer, I feel I have to ask, you know, how do you take the data you get from like the YouTube views, and understand whether those videos which can be, you know, placed your product in, but don't overtly sell a product? How do you understand whether they actually generate return? I mean, what's the data you use to analyze that?

Masha: Yeah, and that's hard. That's another issue with measuring brand effect effectiveness, right. And I've at my time, I read write a bunch of books and watched a bunch of videos on how do you measure brand effectiveness? And the answer is that it's really hard and there isn't a clear way of measuring it. And that's why the default a lot of times is lead generation. Because you can measure that very easily. You can track a lead all the way from inception all the way down to sales deal, right? If you have your sales operation set up properly, but with brand when you're doing a brand campaign like that, when you're doing things like product placement, or much subtler, subtler ways of marketing, it's much harder. And so, you know, all we had to rely on was we started a YouTube channel from scratch. And we had that company at the time had a huge A channel that was well established that was, I think, over a decade old, that had a certain number of views on it. So, we started a separate YouTube channel just for these movies for these documentaries that we were doing. And we just tracked our spend, right, which was the budget versus the number of views, comments, engagement, for sure. Social media engagement, and how much people were talking about these videos. And engagement was through the roof. Like, it wasn't even comparable to anything else I've seen in this engineering software space. And so, you know, that made it obvious. And just tracking, again, like views, likes, shares, things like that, that we can at least demonstrate that look, people are interested in this content, which means that the logo of our company is being placed in front of their eyes, right, like, our UI is being placed in front of their eyes. But, you know, there's a lot of internal marketing that I had to do explaining to the executive teams that, listen, branding doesn't work the same way as lead generation, you're not going to put out a brand campaign, and within a few months, all of a sudden, you have a ton more sales, it takes time, it takes persistence, it takes consistency, you know, people need to see something, whatever it is five, seven times before it actually starts to stick. And so yeah, that was a lot of internal education. And it's just, I don't have a clear solution for you for how do you measure brand effectiveness?

Mike: I think that's very true. I think a lot of us struggle with measuring brand effectiveness. And realistically some of the approaches that people use, particularly consumer a completely impractical in B2B. So, things like, you know, awareness and perception studies can often cost more than the actual campaign themselves, because it's so difficult to do it. So, I totally agree with it's very hard to measure brand.

Masha: Yeah. And you know, what's interesting now, as you're, as you're talking, kind of comparing contrasting my education, my engineering education, right, and engineering training, and my marketing sort of education by experience was marketing or 20 years, right, I educated myself, engineering is so much more rigorous. And there is such specific things that you need, like you either know what the equation looks like, or you don't you either solve the problem the right way, and you get the right answer or you don't in marketing, It's so fluffy, a lot of times, and I almost wish, like, and maybe this does exist, but I haven't seen it, there was a very rigorous marketing program specifically for enterprise marketing, that that has some of the structure of the engineering, oh, how do you properly measure brand? How long does it typically take to build broader brand effectiveness because that data exists, but it's kind of all over the place, you have to dig for it. And consumer marketing, I think, is very different from enterprise level marketing, especially in technical fields. And that's why it's easy for somebody to come in and say, oh, I've done marketing, like, how hard could that be? And kind of jump in and mess a bunch of things up. But you can't do that with an engineer. Like there's certain things that you either have a degree or you don't have a degree?

Mike: Yeah, I think I was very through I mean, engineering is very black and white marketing is definitely shades of gray.

Masha: Exactly.

Mike: I'd like to switch back a bit, Masha, and ask you something that, you know, I think lots of people care about, which is sustainability. And in your sector, I mean, you're obviously producing a tool that is pretty computer intensive, probably, you know, has a fairly significant energy demand to run it. How do you deal with the issue of sustainability? And how do you convey your company's commitment to sustainability? When you're talking to engineers? How important is it?

Masha: That's a great question. I mean, ideally, if we're talking about ideal sustainability, we wouldn't have things like engineering, we wouldn't have technology, and we'd all live in the woods peacefully with major, right, that's ideal scenario, if we're talking about sustainability, specifically, our tool because it's, again, fully in the computer. And yes, it's computer intensive, however, because we're modern solvers. So, our tools for engineers, especially for Engineering Simulation, have been developed 30 plus years ago, and kind of remained pretty much unchanged. Without that the kernel itself, the solver itself has remained unchanged for the most part. And so those solvers meaning the core of that engineering simulation engine, has been developed for prior computing architecture for all computing architecture, and has not been modernized. And so, it does take a lot of computing resources, and they can't solve really large problems. Our solver is more modern, and it has been developed for current parallel computing architecture. So, it's much more efficient as far as computing resources are concerned. So, number one, we could solve much larger problems, much more sophisticated problems, you know, next generation type of simulations. But we also are more up more conservative by nature with our software because of how it has been written. It has been written for modern computing architecture, and so it's much more efficient with the computing resources.

Mike: That's interesting, is something your engineering audience really care about? Or are they really focused on your ability to solve those bigger, more complex problems?

Masha: Not really. I mean, this these tools are a must, I don't know, for probably the most simple example is like trying to build a house without a hammer. Like these tools are the hammer of engineers, engineering simulation tools are a must. They at this point, you can't really design new technologies, whatever it may be, from any of your gym equipment that when you go to the gym and see that has electronics in it, to get into your car, to your smartwatch to your computer, like anything, at this point requires engineering simulation tools. And so, because they're a must, engineers are gonna have them, right. And because they're not like some sort of new social media craze, you know, or some sort of new CRM system or something like that. There are very solid, you know, hard to develop tools, there's only a few of them. So, it's not like engineers have a whole lot of choice. So as far as sustainability, it's kind of like, you got what you got. And there's we don't really get many questions. And again, probably, engineering software tools are the most conservative, the simulation tools are the most conservative as compared to, you know, your alternative, if you didn't use the engineering simulation tools would be to design whatever technology you're designing, to build the whole thing, test it. So physically build it, right. So, it's a part of a car, it's a whole part of a car that you are buying the parts from, you're shipping them from somewhere, you putting them together, assembling them, you measuring them, that is a lot less sustainable than simulating the whole thing in the computer.

Mike: And that makes a lot of sense. So, you know, I think it's great. You've obviously got some sustainability credentials. But I think we often see with a lot of engineering audiences, sustainability isn't always that top priority, particularly when it comes to developing products. I really appreciate all you've talked about Marsha, it's been really interesting, before we end the interview, there's a couple of general questions we always like to ask our interviewees and, and, you know, really build up knowledge on, you know, things like marketing advice. So, I'm interested to know what's the best piece of marketing advice you've ever received.

Masha: I think one of the areas that I had to learn the most in has been on the art directing side of things. So, I worked with a few really good art directors, because I was lucky enough to actually lead the brand, right. And so I actually would build an in house agency and a few of the companies that I worked at as a CMO or head of marketing, they would actually build an internal agency, because I felt it was a lot easier to control, you could move a lot faster, you know, and I had always had specific creative vision that I wanted carried out, as opposed to hiring an outside marketing agency. For brands, specifically, probably the biggest thing I learned is how important the detail is, when it comes to branding, specifically, you know, the little curlicue on a letter and a font could all of a sudden create a completely different mood on your you know, Banner, or an advertising campaign or something else, just from like, where the letter is slanted to the left or to the right, or you know, how curly little edges of the letters are the color, and being the ability to create a mood board first. So I would say this is one of the biggest things is working with an art director, when you're trying to sell to executives in your company, let's say you're a CMO and you're trying to sell an idea or campaign or get more budget for executives in your company, getting buy in on sort of the mood board and storytelling piece first before you actually create a campaign makes such a difference. Because all of a sudden, they're allowed to voice their opinion about how I like the color yellow, and you know, I like whatever certain name for this product, and you kind of flush that out. And a good sort of art director and a good, you know, storyteller will be able to work through all those issues with the executive team and tell them you know why yellow does not work in this case or whatnot. And then the executives feel like they have a buy in, right, like it's a campaign, it wasn't just shoved on their lap, and you haven't spent a whole bunch of time actually creating a full-on campaign, you just kind of playing around with you know, putting together a story for a particular campaign. And you can change it and you haven't dumped a bunch of time in it. And so, I'd say that's one of the biggest learning experiences and things I recommend is putting together sort of a mood board for whatever your brand campaign is, get the buy in from your executive team at that stage, and then work from that.

Mike: love that. That's such good advice. The other question we asked it's advice from you. If you were talking to someone who was just entering a career in marketing, what would you tell them what would be your advice to them?

Masha: Well, okay, so there is a lot of people who think they want to do marketing. So I would say if you're going into marketing, don't do it just because The default and you don't know what else to do, like have a passion for it, you know really feel like you are very creative and you love to create and you love to work with colors and fonts and stories, and you truly love it, and then go into it and then explore it and be rigorous about it. Or if you think you want to go into enterprise marketing, because let's face it, a lot of times, that's where the money is, I recommend getting a technical degree first. And you know, either minoring in marketing or kind of studying it on your own because you can study marketing on your own. All the marketers are gonna hate me for this, but I'm gonna say it anyway. You can study marketing on your own, but you can get you know, you can study physics on your own, but for the most part, like no one's gonna take you seriously as a physicist, you kind of need a physics degree or you need an engineering degree. Or if you're going into FinTech, right enterprise market or you're interested in a FinTech area, get a finance degree and minor in marketing, or starting to study marketing on your own or study art on your own. For example, because you really need an artistic eye for that or study, study storytelling or on your own. That would be my advice.

Mike: I love it. That’s great advice. And as a, you know, a recovering engineer, I really appreciate it as well. Marsha, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate all your insights. If somebody's listening, and they'd like to find out more or contact you what's the best way to learn more about you know, either no space, or get hold of you.

Masha: So, on LinkedIn, I am Masha V Petrova. And if you want to learn about null space if we do have some engineers listening, it's Nullspaceinc.com.

Mike: That's awesome, Masha, thank you so much for your time.

Masha: Thank you so much, Mike. It's a pleasure.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes, or on your favorite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at NapierB2B.com, or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

by Natasha Websdale

A Napier Podcast Interview with Xenia Muntean - Planable

Xenia Muntean, Co-Founder and CEO of Planable, a content collaboration platform, shares some great tips for repurposing content on social media to extend its lifetime, ensuring it remains evergreen and continues to engage audiences after its initial release.

She also discusses the challenges of achieving executive buy-in, how to navigate internal approval processes, and explores the potential impact of AI on social media marketing teams.

• ‎Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
• Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
• Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com

About Planable

Planable is the content collaboration platform that makes marketing teamwork a breeze. It’s the spot where you can create, plan, review, approve, and analyse all your marketing content for social media, blogs, newsletters, press releases. Experience a faster, smoother workflow that helps your team work together like never before.

Started in 2016, Planable is trusted by over 5000 marketing teams behind iconic brands such as Hyundai, Christian Louboutin, Royal Canin, KFC, and SMEG.

About Xenia Muntean

Xenia is the CEO and Co-Founder of Planable, a content review and marketing collaboration platform used by over 10,000 creators behind iconic brands such as Hyundai, Christian Louboutin, Viber, and United Nations. Prior to launching Planable, at 20 years old she built a digital marketing agency and led social for clients such as Coca-Cola.

Xenia Muntean is a Forbes 30 Under 30 honoree, Techstars alumna, and Webby Awards judge. She’s also a frequent speaker, startup mentor, and avid runner.

Time Stamps

[00:50:6] – Xenia provides some background to her career and why she founded planable.

[02:06.6] - Xenia discusses the benefits of being based in Europe versus the United States.

[04:33:1] – What does Plannable do? Xenia explains what makes the platform so loved amongst users.

[09:53:6] – Xenia offers some tips on achieving executive buy-in.

[12:03:0] – How to reuse content to extend its lifetime.

[15:18:7] – What role can AI play in content generation?

[21:45:2] – Xenia’s contact details.

Quotes

“When you build a software as a service product, it's all about the people… building a team that you can resonate with and have less cultural barriers with I think is really important.” Xenia Muntean, Co-Founder and CEO at Planable.

“I think for content it's all about the distribution, right? So, it's really important to have really good, really meaningful content, but also to not forget about the second part. How do you get the most out of that content?” Xenia Muntean, Co-Founder and CEO at Planable.

Follow Xenia:

Xenia Muntean on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/xeniamuntean/

Planable website: https://planable.io/

Planable on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/planable/

Follow Mike:

Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/

Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/

Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.

Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Transcript: Interview with Xenia Muntean - Planable

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Xenia Muntean

Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today.

Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology for podcasts from Napier. I'm Mike Maynard and today I'm joined by Xenia Muntean is the co-founder and CEO of a Martech company called Planable. Welcome to the podcast Xenia.

Xenia: Thank you so much for having me here.

Mike: So it's great to have you on the podcast to start off with, we always like to have people give a little bit of a background as to how their careers developed, and how they've ended up in their current roles. So I don't know if you can just explain, you know, what your career journey was, please?

Xenia: Absolutely, my 90% of my career journey is in Planable. So that's, that's where, you know, I built, I built my entire background professionally. But before Planable, I did have a Social Media Marketing Agency. So I was building a lot of content for brands such as Coca Cola, and some other brands locally back in my home country. And I was doing a lot of, you know, besides social, I was doing websites and branding and everything, you know, everything, digital marketing, everything, you know, was wearing a lot of path. And I've started building that agency whilst I was still in university. And then I can discover this problem that we're currently solving at Planable, and specifically, the back and forth that happens behind digital and social media campaigns. And I've jumped on board on, you know, solving this, this problem and building bannable. And that's what I've been doing for the past eight, nine years, almost. So yeah, so as I mentioned, my entire career has been here, invested in Planable.

Mike: That's great to hear. And it's one of those sort of, you know, nine year overnight successes, I guess.

Xenia: Exactly, yes.

Mike: So one of the things you mentioned Sr, which I always find interesting is, you're based in Europe, you're running a company that I guess primarily serves American customers, and is also incorporated America. So what do you see as the benefits of being in Europe versus moving across to the States.

Xenia: I think, considering the type of customers that we have, that are very digitally savvy ones that have a very thorough buying process, and the entire product, which is very, very easy to use, and also very easy for users to onboard, it's a self service process, through our website over zoom. So there's no point in actually having people on the ground, we do visit our customers, our top customers from time to time for you know, to establish a relationship and for customer success. But other than that, it's all an advantage, considering obviously, you know, the costs of building something, when you build a software as a service product, it's all about the people. And obviously, Eastern Europe is a little bit more affordable than North America. So it's all a big advantage to us. And also culturally, you know, building a team that you can resonate with and have less cultural barriers, I think is really important, especially when the team is quite small, you know, under 100 people, it's really important to have that sync and have that cultural fit.

Mike: I love it. I think that's really fascinating to try and build a stronger culture within the business by bringing people together who have a similar background. But that's a really interesting point. And I think a challenge for a lot of people who try and build international businesses.

Xenia: Yeah, something else that is also very dear to us is our in person culture, which I know is very anti the current trend. But it again, because we're such a small team, we're still a start up in terms of how we think and in terms of how we move, again, you know, having a distributed team or having food on the ground and in North America, that will be really hard for us to incorporate in the current very bonded very in person type of culture that we have.

Mike: That makes a lot of sense. Moving on. I mean, let's let's look at panel itself and the product. Can you give me you know, a little bit more of a description as to what you were trying to solve when you built pluggable?

Xenia: Sure. So when I started building Planable, together with my co founders, I was working on my agency at that point in time and they were working in other digital marketing agencies. And we all kind of stumbled individually into this problem of how do you present work to clients in a really neat and elegant way? And how do you put the work that you're creating for your clients in the best light at that point? In time, and still, now in the present, I don't think PowerPoints or spreadsheets or Google Docs are the best way to present moving graphics, you know, very beautiful content that you're creating for clients, and the entire bank Bonga. And the entire back and forth of that happens over email when you have to discuss that content is also not very efficient. So those are the problems that we stumbled upon, on our own through through the work that we were doing in our agencies. And we did a bit of customer discovery. And we realized that, hey, this is not a problem that we just ourselves are struggling with. But seems like it's, you know, a larger problem not just in agencies, but also in larger companies in house and not just in Eastern Europe, but all across the world. You know, people collaborate on social media posts, in PowerPoints and spreadsheets, they send it back and forth over email, they discuss it there. And you know, a lot of mistakes can happen, a lot of things can fall through the cracks, when you don't have a very smooth process. That's what Planable does. It's one single space where you can bring everyone who needs to be involved in the process of discussing content for social, from the actual people who are creating good copywriters, and designers and social media managers, but also everybody else who is involved and has a word to say in what that content should look like. Other teams, right? So product teams, may be employer, the Vaca, C teams, HR departments, stakeholders, the leadership, everybody who who has a say in that content or has specific knowledge to inform and build that content, can basically bring everyone on the same page, prototype that content, iterate on it together, discuss it, and then you know, obviously, schedule it, and Cloneable is going to take care of the publishing as well. But it's really that workflow and that back and forth process that we really shine at.

Mike: And I mean, there's obviously quite a lot of products out there who do something vaguely similar in terms of presenting content for people to review. You know, you said you really shine a showcase in that content. Can you dig a little bit deeper and unpack you know, exactly why Planable is loved by your users? Yeah.

Xenia: Yeah. So how visual the product is, I think one of the first things that our users see when they discover the product is that oh, wow, you know, it's really visual, and it looks so good. The interface is so clean Lake, it's really easy to use. So the interface and the usability are probably the things that people you know, love a lot about the product. And I think that's really, really important considering that it is a product where you showcase the work and where everybody looks at the work, looks at the content discusses it collaborates around that. So it's really important to put it in the best light and basically yes to, to do good by that content. And the way we do that is by allowing you to see how the posts are actually going to look like once they're live. Right. So imPlanable, when you create content, when you create social media posts for your campaign, you can actually see a live markup, a preview of how that content is going to look like on any social media network, right. So if you're creating content for LinkedIn, you're gonna see posts as though they're on LinkedIn already. Right? So for Instagram, the same, you can see the grid on Instagram where everything is going to look together, once the entire campaign is live, you can see the stories and the tech talks and all the posts for every social media platform. Pinterest has the same, you know, native format as a pin. So all of them are kind of destination aware. And you are able to experience it as though it's live, which is really great for you as a creator. Because you're working in a more delightful way you can actually see how your work is going to look like. But it's also very good for everyone who is involved in the process in terms of approving that content, right? It's very often social media managers work with people who are not very social media savvy, all kinds of stakeholders that don't know how a specific format of posts is actually going to look like. So you're taking that friction out of the equation. And people can see the content, no miscommunications, no question, they just get how they're going to look like. And it's all a matter of, let's change this, or let's improve that part to make the entire process of collaborating and approving contents moves.

Mike: So that's interesting. I was going to ask you about mistakes that people make. And it sounds like one of the big ones is assuming the audience internally who's got to review and approve the posts, actually understands the social media network. You know, we've got a primarily B2B audience. We probably have a bigger problem with executives not understanding social media, that maybe even consumer people do.

Xenia: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's really important to be able to gather feedback from state encoders in a way that is very easy to them, right. So when you need people to get involved in that process, you really need to make it super easy for them to give you feedback. And I know that from my own experience working with clients, if they need to log in into some tool and learn how that tool works, it's just not going to happen. They're gonna call you, they're gonna email you, they're gonna give you feedback and some other ways that is more convenient and easier for them. So you need to remove all those barriers to entry when it comes to feedback, right. So you need a tool that is very, very simple to use, where they see everything in a familiar way, right. So if you work with executives on content for LinkedIn, they need to log in. And it needs to look as though it's actually on LinkedIn. So it makes it super, super easy for them to be able to give feedback and also give feedback in a granular way. Right? So we take feedback to the next level asides plan and ball, kind of like how Google Docs does it rides on in Google Docs, you can give feedback as annotations, right? So you can give feedback on specific words, like the specific words and give feedback, or even do suggestions where you can delete an entire part and rewrite it yourself. So it makes that feedback more specific. And it brings more clarity in that process. And that's exactly what Planable does, as well, so that there are no mistakes or miscommunications around what needed to be changed, or to what part of the social media post were you referring to? Right. So it's crystal clear.

Mike: That's super important. I've seen a lot of feedback that's coming in, that's a little bit vague. And then the changes that are made are not quite right. And it ends up wasting time for everybody, you know, whether it's two people within a brand or an agency in a brand, I love that idea of making the feedback, crystal clear. Just moving on now. So one of the things I think a lot of people are looking at is to be able to reuse their content. So maybe that's across different social platforms, or maybe that's generating multiple posts around the same topic. I mean, what's your view on content reuse? And how does Planable you know, help you create a workflow that's more efficient?

Xenia: I think for content, it's all about the distribution, right? So it's really important to make really good, really meaningful content, but also to not forget about the second part, how do you get the most out of that content very often. And I see that inside our team as well, very often, we produce really, really good content, and that we launch it once we promote it once and then it kind of you know, sits somewhere and collects dust to basically, so you need to get as much out of that content as possible. And one way Planable helps with that is by bringing other formats of content inside your calendar. Right? Though very typically, when you look at social media management platforms out there, it's only focused on social. So we are more focused on the content. And we're helping you bring newsletters and articles and any other format of content that you can think of into your calendar into your editorial calendar. So you can see it alongside your content. So you can, you know, say that, okay, this, this article can collaborate on it. And then you can you know, trust format, we have a very, very solid integration with open AI and site findable, so you can take an article, and then you can rewrite it and make it into you know, multiple posts that you can use it on LinkedIn, or you know, on any other channel that works best for your audience. So this is really, really helpful in terms of getting the most out of the content piece. But also, we do have an evergreen functionality, right, where, if you have a post that you know, has performed very, very well, maybe you can reuse it and reschedule at you know, every couple of months, so that you can get you know more out of it. And again, customize it, personalize it a little bit so that it's not always you know, the same single pose, but maybe the concept is the same. And then you tweak it, again, with AI. So you can make things you know, very efficient. And you can get that post on an evergreen schedule. So you can recycle and use that content and in more ways than just one initial launch and then forgetting about it.

Mike: I love and am I right? I mean Planable also has the analytics built in so you can understand which of those posts should be evergreen. Exactly,

Xenia: Exactly, yes. So you look at the performance, we have a snapshot. So we don't go extraordinary in depth, you can get a lot of data from the platforms themselves, when we give you a snapshot, a real time snapshot of how your page is performing, but also how individual posts are performing. So you can look at what success looks like on your page and what content is successful and gain insights either about producing more content in that direction. Or directly as you mentioned, Mike just taking you know one post and rewriting it, tweaking it and putting it on evergreen schedule. That's

Mike: perfect. And it sounds like it shortcuts a lot of time because you've got everything in one platform, which I think is great. And you mentioned earlier ai ai and the use of AI to rewrite repurpose existing content? I mean, how do you see AI impacting a tool like Planable? In the future? Are you going to have more AI actual origination of posts and images? Or do you think that still needs a human to be creative and write the first draft,

Xenia: you absolutely absolutely needs like you're meant to be creative AI is a copilot, it's a tool that helps you either sometimes maybe with inspiration, but also in other times, it helps you make your work a little bit more efficient, but it's obviously not gonna replace social media managers, I can see that you still need the human touch, you still need that authenticity, someone to understand the brand and to come up with the concepts and the strategies and the creative ideas. And then yes, you can use AI to polish it, you can use AI to rewrite some pieces. But definitely, I can't see, at least not at the moment, to replace this entire profession, the way we have aI inside Planable is integrated into the creation process. So as I mentioned already, can help you rewrite things, it can help you make it punchy, or short or longer, whatever you need, or you can even give it images and it's going to create captions out of those images, which you can then you know, Polish and you know, work with them 40% of creators inside Planable use AI and 75% of what they're getting from the AI is actually being used live in production. So it has, you know, a great acceptance rate when it comes to the the output. So I think you know, it's a really great tool, but it's definitely not something that is going to replace the work, you still need genuine connection with your audience and a genuine understanding of your brand and your audience.

Mike: I think that's great. The really understanding the brand and connecting with the audiences is really good advice. I mean, do you have any other advice for people who are generating social media posts, and I'm thinking particularly of agencies like Napier, that might be generating social media posts for our clients? How can we do a better job?

Xenia: That's the big question. And that's a big one, I think it needs to be very much in collaboration with the client, and you need to be very, very close to the business as an agency, right? You need to really understand what the businesses objectives are, kind of what they're after what the goals are, but also you knew really in depth understanding of the products and the services. And yeah, you really need to be very integrated into into that business. And it sounds like a no brainer, but I think that is where you need to get started. And then all kinds of ideas and problems and solutions appear once you're very, very close to the business. And in a strong collaboration with a client. I know a lot of agencies are kind of against this entire approval process. And you know, ideally, they just do the work and not have the client involved in the collaboration that you know, they've been hired for that. But there is a very big added value to having the client involved in the process. They know so much about the business, they know so much about the brand, that they're building the product. And I think, you know, if you establish a really strong, really candid relationship with your clients, you can get more out of the content and the services that you're providing for them.

Mike: Absolutely. I think that's great advice. And I know, you know, I've heard people complaining about the client being involved and the classic brand police complaint. What you said about honesty is absolutely right on if if you're really candidate, and you've talked to a client, I think you can then overcome. And to be honest, from agency's point of view, I think it's generally feeling the client is being too cautious, which is then going to impact the results. But I think an agency can be candid, that's great advice. I love that. So I really appreciate your time Xenia, it's been really interesting. Before we finish, there's a couple of questions, we always like to ask people. And the first one is what's the best piece of marketing advice you've ever been given?

Xenia: I had a very good conversation around positioning. And positioning is really important to us, because we're in a very, very crowded market, you know, B2B technology, but also marketing technology. I don't know if you've seen those marketing technology maps, but they're gigantic. So it's really important to understand who your ideal customer is, who is actually getting the most value out of your product and your service, who loves you the most basically, and think about your positioning around that. And I think we should have thought about how we position our brand earlier. I wish we did that earlier. But I think this advice and this, you know, conversation that I had the wrong positioning with someone that was really, really good and I'm happy we finally did it and you know, it clarified a lot of things internally as well.

Mike: think that's great. That's really important. I think quite a stir theatric bit of advice as well. The other question we'd like to ask people is around marketers entering the industry. So if you were talking to someone who maybe is just finishing a university degree about to enter marketing as a career, what advice would you give them to help them be successful?

Xenia: I try as many things as possible in the marketing space, I started as a generalist. So I think, you know, if you try a lot of things, you get the occasion to do that, to get the opportunity to actually wear a lot of hats in the marketing space. I think that's great. I think you expose yourself to a lot of things and you can understand what are the things that interests you the most, what are the things that you're good at, you know, by getting that really broad exposure to all of the things marketing, you can find? What are the directions that maybe you want to specialize in? Or maybe you want to be, you know, continue as a generalist that, you know, path, a swab. But I hear that a lot of you know, people, especially early in their career, you know, complain a lot about like, Oh, you didn't, you can see a lot of memes on Tik Tok, as well about all of the hats that you wear as a marketer. And I think that's great, especially early in your career, I think that kind of exposure, you get to learn a lot from it. And it's really, really good opportunity. If you want to specialize later on, obviously, you know, you can go into that path. But I think that early exposure, teaches you a lot about the different mixes and parts that are, you know, the world of marketing.

Mike: Thank you. I think that's awesome advice for anyone starting a career in marketing. So thank you very much. I mean, Sr, I really appreciate your time all the insights you've shared, if somebody's listening to podcasts, they want to find out more about Planable on maybe, you know, ask you some questions about what you've said, What's the best way to do that.

Xenia: So the best way to do that is either to reach out on LinkedIn, and let me know that you've heard me in this podcast and absolutely connect with me, I'd be more than happy to talk. And also, if you want to learn more about Planable, you can just go to our website Planable.io. We have a free plan. You can test the product on your own for a month, you can see you know if it's a problem that you have, and if this solution that we're building is something that works for you. But yeah, reach out on LinkedIn. And you know, just go to our website if you want to check us out.

Mike: Thanks so much. I really appreciate your time. And thank you for being a guest on marketing B2B technology.

Xenia: Thank you so much for having me here.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes, or on your favorite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at Napier B2B dot com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

by Natasha Websdale

A Napier Podcast Interview with Andrus Purde - Outfunnel

Andrus Purde, Co-Founder and CEO of Outfunnel, an integration platform, discusses the importance of sharing data between marketing and sales teams and the challenges businesses face when their tools don't communicate effectively.

• ‎Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
• Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
• Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com

About Outfunnel

Outfunnel is an integration platform that makes it easy to connect sales and marketing tools, keep customer data in sync across the MarTech stack, and record all marketing engagement in the CRM.

About Andrus Purde

Andrus Purde is Co-Founder, CEO and ‘recovering marketer’ at Outfunnel. Andrus founded the integration platform in 2017 following a career in marketing, including positions at Pipedrive and Skype.

Time Stamps

[00:01:0] - Andrus introduces himself and talks about his marketing career before starting Outfunnel.

[00:03:2] - Andrus discusses Estonia as a great place for startups and the benefits of being based there.

[00:06:0] - Importance of Two-Way Data Sync: Andrus explains the significance of syncing data both ways between CRM and marketing tools.

[00:10:3] - Andrus talks about the popular integrations and connections made using Outfunnel.

[00:14:0] - Andrus discusses the strategies used to promote Outfunnel.

[00:18:3] - Andrus shares the best marketing advice he has received.

[00:21:4] - Andrus's contact details.

Quotes

“Some companies operate years, or forever, with data in isolation… marketers and salespeople who are doing the work... they shouldn't worry about how the tools have been sourced in their company. They should just have access to the data.” Andrus Purde, Co-Founder and CEO at Outfunnel

Follow Andrus:

Andrus Purde on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andruspurde/

Outfunnel website: https://outfunnel.com/

Outfunnel on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/outfunnel/

Follow Mike:

Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/

Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/

Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.

Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Transcript: Interview with Andrus Purde - Outfunnel

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Andrus Purde

Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today.

Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. I'm Mike Maynard and today I'm talking to Andrus Purde. Andrus is the Co-Founder and CEO of Outfunnel. Welcome to the podcast.

Andrus: Hey Mike, thank you for having me. I think as to my title, I think I can also call myself a recovering marketer. I've been in marketing all my life before co-founding and leading Outfunnel, and I think it's something I will never get out of whether I want to or not.

Mike: That's an interesting position, recovering marketer. I mean, maybe just to start off, you could give us a little bit of background about your marketing career and what you did before you started Outfunnel.

Andrus: So I was in non-tech, traditional marketing before in my early career. I worked at the newspaper, fast food and consumer goods consulting. And then at some point I realized I'm doing the same job over and over again until the baby grass is greener on this other side, which is technology, which had started to take off already. And so I joined Sky pretty early and then worked in product marketing at Sky here in Tallinn, where I'm from, and also in London. Then got involved with a more unknown startup called Pipetribe back when they were getting started and spent seven years there as a first marketer and then first head of marketing. And then co-founded Aftelet and I've been working on it for more than six years now.

Mike: That's fantastic. And I'll talk about out front in a second. But you mentioned you're based in Estonia. You know, how's that as a place to base a startup? Is it a great place with a good startup scene? Or do you wish you'd gone to Silicon Valley?

Andrus: It's a great place for building a company because the weather is usually so bad that you're inclined to stay indoors and work on your startup. Also, I think the startup scene here, the technology scene here is pretty good now. 15 years ago, I would have had to move to either Valley or maybe Boston or London, or depending on what the company was doing. But right now, I think you can, especially after COVID and all this remote thing, you can work everywhere. And the startup scene, both in terms of A company started and tech talent and investments in Estonia is very good. I think we are probably the best or the top of the list in Europe, if not the world.

Mike: That's fantastic and it's very positive to hear that in Europe there are these startup hubs that are really growing and developing and clearly Estonia is one of them.

Andrus: Yeah, it's all related to the weather.

Mike: I think by that logic, the British should also be amazing at startups as well, because we've not had great weather.

Andrus: I think the British summers can be pretty long and pretty warm. So if you ever want to complain about the weather, come up north, come to Estonia, and let's check out our winters.

Mike: I'll definitely do that at some point. It's one of the countries I've wanted to visit and never been to. So I will definitely come and see you.

Anyway, Andrus, going back to Outfunnel, you know, you're working with Pipedrive. I think if anyone's in a small business, in a marketing or sales function, they'd absolutely know Pipedrive. Maybe some of our enterprise listeners might not be so familiar. But you're working there, and then you decided that you wanted to go and start Outfunnel. So what drove you to want to create Outfunnel, and what problem was it solving?

Andrus: So I think two answers to that. First answer is boredom. So I had been a tech marketer for quite a while, and I had this itch of perhaps wanting to try something on my own, to break out of this marketer job title and be an entrepreneur. And second is that working with Pipetribe customers, and I think a good marketer has to work closely with customers. I noticed that the companies, small businesses were loving the sales software that we were offering, but they were finding it hard to connect marketing tools and the workflows to Pipetribe. And then my wish to try something else, and then the need which I saw exist in the market emerged into a project first like a research project and then a small minimal viable product and then a company around it.

Mike: That's fantastic and I don't think that it's users of pipe drive that are alone in the problem of syncing marketing and sales data. I mean why do you think it's such a problem to get that data together?

Andrus: Because they usually exist in different tools, at least for many non-enterprise customers, even maybe for enterprise customers if you look at the size of the data-syncing market. Usually driving revenue happens in collaboration between the sales team and the marketing team. And sometimes there's a chief revenue officer who's leading it, but oftentimes there's a sales leader, the marketing leader, and they want to do what's best for their team because that's the best thing usually for the company. And they pick their stack, their tools. And if a sales director or sales VP picks something like HubSpot as their CRM and the marketing VP pick something like ImageImp as their main tool, then these tools don't talk to each other natively. There are some integrations, some of them even pretty good ones offered by the vendors themselves, but it's very hard to get the tools to work in order for the teams to be able to work together. So there's usually some one-way data syncs available, but if you want the tools to sync up two-way, you need to look for a specialist integration. Building it on your own as a custom integration or using one of the integration platforms out from the list is just one of the options.

Mike: And that's interesting, you talk about this important difference between a one-way sync and a two-way sync. So in your experience, what do you get from syncing both ways, so to and from the CRM, as opposed to just sending data to the CRM?

Andrus: That depends really on the type of company and how their sales and marketing operations have been set up. Some companies operate years or forever with data in isolation. So the marketing team doesn't have access to the same data the sales team has. Or only one person maybe in the marketing team has access to the sales data and vice versa. So even thinking one way is a step forward and it helps sales and marketing teams work together better. Marketers and salespeople who are doing the work, they shouldn't worry about how the tools have been sourced in their company. They should just have access to the data. They need to do their job. They shouldn't do manual work. And also the leads on the receiving end shouldn't be receiving messages from a company that are completely irrelevant to what they have purchased or been interested in before.

Mike: I'm interested because, you know, you've talked specifically about marketing and sales data. Outfunnel, I guess, is continually developing and it's already starting to add data from other sources, so obviously form, fill data, but also you've even got some ad integration with Facebook. Is that something you see Outfunnel growing into, more of an integration across all sorts of marketing and sales tools?

Andrus: Definitely, I mean, because I think one of the benefits of using a big platform such as HubSpot, who offers both the CRM and marketing automation tool, and also a website CMS tool with forms. One of the major benefits is that all the data is synced up. Salespeople know where a lead has come from, which campaign or source to have they engaged with emails, what emails have they engaged with, et cetera. So clearly there's good reasons to have all the data synced up in one place. But then the slight, or actually not too slight, downside is that it can cost an arm and a leg. So using a major platform such as HubSpot or Salesforce can cost thousands or tens of thousands of dollars, euros, pounds per month. So as a smart or small business, you want to maybe look for the same benefits, at a lower budget. So using best of breed and nifty tools, and then suiting them up with either custom integrations or something without funding, I think is a great alternative to using one of the major all-in-one platforms.

Mike: That's interesting. It's a great point around value as well as what you talked about earlier with maybe sales and marketing want different tools. I'm interested, you know, you've got all these integrations, you know, what are the most popular integrations? What are the biggest, you know, connections that you tend to make or your customers tend to make using Outfunnel?

Andrus: So, I think maybe due to my own background and we have some other team members that are Vija alumni. We have a lot of Pipetribe customers as our customers. And then our popular integrations are then connections between Pipetribe and MageImp or Pipetribe and Xavio or Pipetribe and Brevo, formerly Sendinblue. So we're just linking up CRM and the marketing automation tool so that nobody needs to do manual contacting, import, exporting. And so the email engagement can be linked back to the CRM for the marketing automation tool to offer salespeople more context. So I think these are some of our popular integrations and also similar integrations with HubSpot as the CRM. So I think that, yeah, our bread and butter is linking a CRM and the marketing automation tool. And I would think the second category is just other revenue generating related apps. So calendars among our popular integrations. If you want your Calendly meetings to arrive in your CRM instantly and with all the submitted data coming to the right fields and with the marketing source also attached to the lead, then we can do that for our customers.

Mike: That's fascinating. I mean, another thing I'd like to understand, you can sync things like history together. There's a lot of tools that can just bring the basic fields across. But syncing history where you have multiple items for contact is much more difficult. It's something that's hard to do, for example, in Zapier. How important is that to get that record of what people have done across from one system to another? Or is it more just making sure that you've got the same email address, the same spelling of the first name and things like that?

Andrus: Second, it depends. I think for some use cases, it's perfectly fine to use something like Zapier. So if you need to submit form submissions from website to CRM, then Zapier can be just fine. But then there's cases where you'd want to do whole segment-based syncing. So I want to sync maybe customers and leads as a list from the CRM to the marketing tool. And maybe there's a list of secondary leads or other types of leads that I want to sync from the marketing tool to the CRM. Some of them are new, some of them have some history. And then trigger-based syncing is not enough and you'll want to use a specialist. solution for that. You could use Outfunnel, you could build it your own, there's other tools like Outfunnel that help you. Usually I think if there's a database in CRM and another database in marketing automation tool, you want this synced in a way which is not trigger-based but more holistic and it would include more historical data.

Mike: That makes sense, that makes a lot of sense to give a richer picture. I'm interested as well on the platform. So Outfunnel, we've talked a lot about syncing. You also offer other features in Outfunnel. So for example, visitor tracking on websites. Can you talk a little bit about why you've chosen to do that in Outfunnel, why that makes sense rather than maybe using a marketing platform that would have that built in?

Andrus: We built it because not all marketing tools have it. So HubSpot had it, and then HubSpot users who use the whole suite don't need ours or anybody else's. But if you're a PipeServe user, for example, or a copy user who uses MailChimp as a marketing automation tool, then MailChimp doesn't have a website visitor tracking feature. And yet, understanding what leads to on your website and which lead has visited which page is hugely important in understanding how warm a lead is or how self-reliant they are. So we think we picked it because customers were asking for it. And as soon as all the marketing platforms or CRMs have added their own, we're happy to drop ours because our bread and butter is in taking data between There's the marketing tools, but in order to offer a holistic solution for a company that you have your CRM data and your email data and your website data and your ads data in one place, then we need to either offer our own website visitor tracking feature or integrate with the tool which offers it.

Mike: That makes a lot of sense. I totally understand that. I'm just changing a little bit in terms of focus here. I'm interested to know how you promote Outfunnel. What works for you? What do you find the best tactics? And marketers are always, I think, interested in knowing what works for other people in other companies.

Andrus: One thing which I think is both a plus and a hindrance is that we tend to, our purchase of decision for something like Outfunnel tends to be very close to purchase decision of a CRM. And then if somebody stops using a CRM, they will also probably stop using something like Outfunnel. So then the communities that CRM companies have built around them are our biggest source of leads. And we just need to be present there, we need to make sure that we have good reviews there. We need to make sure that we are active in the communities which are online and sometimes offline. So that is by far our major source of lead. So we are present on Pytron Marketplace, HubSpot Marketplace, Copper Community and Salesforce we are not that active with yet, but we are definitely be more active with Salesforce in the future as our integration gets more advanced. The other important way for us finding customers and for customers finding us is we're just findable. I think there's a category of products which people are not aware of. There you really need to be active in media advertising or social media or PR, but we belong in a category which people tend to know. So if they want to take Pipedrive and MainChimp, they start Googling it. And we just need to be findable. which means that our content at SEO Cave needs to be somewhat strong. We need to buy some ads through the rated keywords. And then we just need to make sure that sites that come up when you search for something like connecting HubSpot and ActiveCampaign feature us, which is a combination of SEO content, some review management, and then working with platforms like AppJarra and whatever sites come up with online searches.

Mike: That's great. And it's really interesting how you're focusing all your SEO around solving problems, you know, you're not optimizing for your brands. In fact, you're optimizing for the brands or the vendors that you're you're gluing together.

Andrus: Exactly. And then sometimes A PyTorch user may just want to know, how do I get more value out of the CRM that we picked? And then they search for PyTorch integrations or PyTorch tips or PyTorch hacks. And then these are also keywords where we want to be present. This is not our large source of lead, but it's important enough to warrant some attention and some work from us.

Mike: That absolutely makes sense. I'm interested actually now, we've talked a lot about Outfunnel, and you integrate with all sorts of products, from MailChimp up to Salesforce. So who do you think you're really designed for? Is it designed for a particular size company or people with particular problems? Where do you think you fit in the market? And the question everybody's wondering as well is, what does it look like in terms of pricing for the products?

Andrus: So I think we are targeting larger, there's a term which I don't love, but I use it a lot nevertheless. So SMBs, so small and medium businesses. So we're targeted at SMBs. Some are solopreneurs, so about 1% each. Some are very large companies, but I think our sweet spot is 10 to 200 people in the company. And then the company would need to have a marketing function or team and a sales function team. If a company only has a sales team, let's say, I don't know, if you're selling to government, you don't really do much marketing. You don't need your marketing and sales data to be joined, then there's less relevance for us. If you work in e-commerce, you're mostly doing advertising, there's no sales team. There's no need for something called funder. There's no need to unite your data. But yeah, I think companies where The sales team, marketing team, which are medium-sized, and then where sales and marketing need to work together, that's where usually there's a bigger data integration need. And then these companies tend to want to sync up their sales and marketing data.

Mike: Perfect. That's really clear, and I'm sure really helpful for listeners to work out, you know, where you sit in the market. I really appreciate your time, Andrus. I'd just like to ask, there's a couple of questions we like to ask everybody who guests on the podcast. And the first thing is to know, what's the best bit of marketing advice you've ever been given?

Andrus: That's a very good question. And I thought about it hard, but then the best advice I've given depends on where I've been in my career and what stage the company has been. So there's no, I think there's no universal advice in marketing other than talk to your customers. Everything else depends on the stage of your company. the budget of your company and then how your customers buy. So I would say talk to customers. They will tell you how they want to buy, which I think is a good guideline for how you should market.

Mike: That's awesome. That's actually incredibly good advice. I love that. And the other question we always ask is about people starting off in marketing. So you said it's important to understand where you are in your career for the best advice. Well, what about someone who's, you know, maybe just left university is going into their first marketing job? What advice would you give them?

Andrus: I would advise them to not look for advice, but just try it out. So try different marketing roles, try to see where, like, does marketing suit them overall? And if it does, then try to get experience. And then I think the good thing nowadays is it's easy to get, like, bite-sized jobs, work via freelancing platforms or work on a contract basis. Try to work in B2B, B2C, different areas and see where you connect, where your skills and strengths really shine. And then go all in if you find something where your skills make sense.

Mike: Awesome. That's really good advice. I think really strong advice for anyone starting their career. Just to summarize, is there anything you feel we've missed or how would you like us to remember Outfunnel and what it can do for customers?

Andrus: A good place to start is that do your sales and marketing teams need to work together? If they do, is the data joined together already? If they're not, starting from data is usually a good place to start because it's relatively easy and relatively inexpensive. So if the data is not joined, I would stop there. But if the data is already joined, and if the sales and market teams are working off the same data, then you would need to look into areas such as communication or collaboration or joint goals, which are harder to manage. They take longer to solve, but great next things to do after data has been joined up.

Mike: That's fantastic. I think that's a really good summary. Thank you so much for your time on the podcast, Andrus. Just one question. If people have something they want to ask you or they'd like to find out more information about the product, what's the best place to go either to get a hold of you or to learn more about Outfunnel?

Andrus: I am active on LinkedIn. So Outfunnel is easy to find on LinkedIn and my name may be a bit complex to pronounce in English. A-N-D-R-U-S-P-U-R-D-E. But yeah, I'm usually easy to get hold of there. And I'd love to answer any questions relating to B2B marketing or connecting sales and marketing data.

Mike: That's awesome. That's very kind. Thank you so much for being a guest on the podcast, Andrus. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Mike. Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes or on your favorite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at napierb2b.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

by Natasha Websdale

A Napier Podcast Interview with Mark Donnigan - Virtual CMO

In this episode of Marketing B2B Technology, Mike chats with Mark Donnigan, a virtual CMO who works with tech companies. Mark shares insights into his career journey, discusses his approach to building long-term client relationships, and emphasises the importance of understanding the market and customers.

Mark also shares his advice on marketing tactics, highlights the value of focusing on go-to-market strategy, and talks about the importance of getting into the field to understand customers.

• ‎Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
• Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
• Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com

About Mark Donnigan

Mark Donnigan designs and executes marketing programs and go-to-market strategies to establish and grow markets for disruptive startup companies. As a transformative B2B marketing and business leader, Mark understands what’s required to succeed in today’s winner-takes-all market.

Well-versed in SaaS, software licensing, enterprise technology, and platform business models, Mark helps companies build efficient marketing teams that routinely outperform larger marketing departments.

Time Stamps

[00:44.0] - Mark shares his career journey and explains his role as Virtual CMO.

[12:57.0] - The benefits of hiring a Virtual CMO versus full-time CMO.

[14:45.0] - Mark talks about his approach to building marketing plans.

[18:42.0] - Overrated marketing channels and tactics

[23:26.0] - Challenges with fixed KPIs in marketing

[24:37.0] - Mark offers some marketing advice

[25:52.0] - Mark's contact details

Quotes

“Get into the field. Know the market. Know the customers. Know how they think. Know what they care about. Know how they make decisions.” Mark Donnigan, Virtual CMO.

Follow Mark:

Mark Donnigan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markdonnigan/

Growth Stage Marketing website: https://growthstage.marketing/

Follow Mike:

Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/

Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/

Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.

Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Transcript: Interview with Mark Donnigan - Virtual CMO

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Mark Donnigan

Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today.

Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today, I'm joined by Mark Donnigan. Mark is a virtual CMO who works with tech companies. Welcome to the podcast, Mark.

Mark: Yeah, well, thanks for having me. Really looking forward to the conversation. Well, it's great.

Mike: So Mark, firstly, we like to understand a bit about people's background. So can you tell me a little bit about your career and how you got to the point of working with all these different tech companies?

Mark: That's right, yeah. Well, I like to say my career is like all of ours, right? It was absolutely perfectly orchestrated. I had everything planned, knew exactly where I would be at each juncture. Obviously, that's a joke. Yeah, so I am technical by nature. I do consider myself a technologist, but really I'm a marketer. I'm a creative. I play music. And, you know, so I kind of have this left brain, you know, this right brain thing going on, which, which I guess serves well in marketing, you know, the data side and then the art side of it. But I started my career, I actually did go to music school after dropping out of a computer science program. Long story about how that was, but that's for another show. But yeah, I went to music school and I realized, oh no, not everybody is a rich rock star. And so I found my way into sales and started building my sales career. Along the way, I very quickly discovered the power of marketing as an accelerator to sales and revenue. Initially, I would say it was sort of just out of necessity that I began to really become a student of marketing. Again, I wanted to make my numbers, and as I was growing in my sales career and managing teams, I wanted my teams to make their numbers. You know, I took a very fervent interest in how marketing works and eventually took on formal responsibility for marketing, but always running sales, you know, it's always in a revenue context. My career really pivoted more into the marketing realm, I guess you would say, when I started getting involved in startups and started doing a lot more around strategy, more business development, you know, looking out at markets, how are we going to build markets? What markets should we go after? where there are opportunities, you know, market inflections, all those things that you do, you know, when you're growing, especially a startup, a technology startup that just sent me increasingly down the path of looking at marketing. really my full-time focus and so I've been living in the marketing world full-time you know or really I guess you could say in a dedicated way for oh a dozen years or more and been working in technology and technology sales for 25 years.

Mike: I love that enthusiasm around, you know, helping companies scale. I mean, what is it that really excites you about that? Is it the fact you can have a big impact in a very short time or you can see massive growth? What's really cool about that?

Mark: Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I actually introduce myself when people, most of the time I do anyway, when people say, hey, so what do you do? You know, I say I build companies. I actually say that before I say something like, oh, I'm a virtual CMO or I work with startups and help them in the areas of marketing. I usually say I build companies because really at the end of the day, that is what we all should be doing, right? But I believe that that is the ultimate mission of marketing, you know, really. And that may seem like a completely obvious statement. And yet I think we've all seen too many examples where, you know, marketing is a little closer to the arts and crafts department or the keeper of the brand. Important things, you know, look creative absolutely matters. And yes, brand absolutely matters. But, you know, when you're building a company, especially today and especially in the tech world, there's a lot to that, you know, there's a lot to it. So yeah, I really enjoy the elements of building, creating something that, that, that is new and that's, you know, fresh and different. That's, uh, that's what I love.

Mike: And one of the things that interests me is probably most of the people who listen to this podcast, they're probably employed in a large enterprise rather than a smaller company. I'm sure they're interested to know what it's like to be a virtual CMO. What kind of engagements do you have? How much time per week do you work on each client? Are you working on multiple projects at the same time? Tell us a little bit about the role.

Mark: Sure. So nowadays, the fractional executive role, so whether that's a virtual CFO, virtual CMO, virtual, you know, the whole C-suite is being virtualized, it seems. It does mean different things, and some of it is really based on how the individual chooses to work. So the way that I choose to work is I don't do projects. So that is one model. You know, one model is to drop in as a virtual executive and maybe you're kickstarting building a team. Maybe the CEO or the founder feels, hey, you know, I really could use kind of a confidant for six months while I'm trying to kind of understand, maybe they're not a marketing person, they don't understand marketing, so they want someone to walk alongside them. That's fine. That's not how I work. So what I do is I come into environments, into organizations where I can add value. That involves obviously bringing my marketing toolkit with me, you know, meaning, you know, all my experience. But it generally also means going into markets that I know very, very well. So very commonly, I actually come in as a subject matter expert in that industry. For example, one industry that I primarily work in is video technology, video streaming. You know, if you think, I think all of us probably have a Netflix subscription. So any service like Netflix that is streaming high quality video, there's a whole set of technologies that come together behind the scenes to make that happen. That's a market that I know very, very well. I just came from the National Association of Broadcasters show in Las Vegas. And I actually spoke on a couple panels and moderated an executive session. And so I'm out there not as a CMO. I'm actually out there as a subject matter expert presenting and speaking to the industry. So that sets me apart in how I work. And it also is an incredible differentiation when, you know, when there's a lot of very, very talented marketing folks out there, marketing leaders, some who probably have way more experience and can bring even more than I could. But generally the fact that I know the market in a way that maybe another you know, marketing leader does not, is why companies want to work with me and why they do work with me. So, I typically engage for multiple years in my clients, typically two to, you know, I have an engagement coming up on four years and it's, you know, it's not showing any signs of ending. The working relationship is really, you know, well fit. So, works well for the client, if it works well for me, then we keep going.

Mike: That sounds good that you're really looking to build that long-term relationship.

Mark: It's the only way to do it, I've found, at least I feel.

Mike: No, absolutely, completely agree. I mean, I think I'm interested, you know, why people would call you in rather than maybe hire a full-time CMO. Is there a certain stage in a company's development or have they hit a particular problem? I mean, what's normally the trigger?

Mark: Yeah, very good question. So, uh, it can be at a couple different points. First of all, I don't engage with real early stage companies. So if you think about it as funding rounds, um, I'm almost never working with, in fact, I'm trying to think. Actually, I have had one client that was seed, seed funded, meaning that, you know, that I actually helped them a little bit. but they actually were not a real long-term engagement. So typically they're at series A to series B. They're doing somewhere between five to ten million dollars of revenue. They are at a stage of what you might say is product market fit. They're in a scale up. And so they call me for a couple reasons. One is, is that they finally have the resources to be able to build a marketing function beyond, you know, maybe a founder and a founder and a freelancer or a founder, a freelancer and a first marketing hire, you know, in other words, everybody starts, you know, pretty, pretty simple. It's, it's pretty much, you look around and you say, what do we have? You know, and if there's somebody who took a few courses of marketing in the, in the startup, they're usually congratulations. You're now our director of marketing, you know, in a lot of startups, that's the way it works. But the challenge is, is that that's one way to get started. You get a website built and you can, you know, go to a few trade shows and you can kind of get something started, but it's not a way to build a real. engine, you know, you just, you just need typically more experience. And so they'll call me in for that. Uh, in some cases, maybe there was a failed high profile hire. Many, many startups fall into the trap of, they look at either who the leader in their, in their particular space is, or maybe somebody who's, you know, who's, um, one step removed. You know, and a common one that gets, you know, that gets bantered around is if we could just get someone out of HubSpot, if we could just hire someone from the HubSpot marketing team, we're going to crush it. That's what we need. So they go tell their, you know, their recruiter or their third party recruiter, or they start scouring LinkedIn, looking for an end to get somebody who's, you know, looking for that next promotion at HubSpot, you know, to recruit them away. The problem is, is that those marketing hires almost always fail. They certainly don't succeed in the way that most people plan them to, not because it's the individual's fault. but because there was a complete mismatch between what that company needs, the stage of the company, and the HubSpot, for example. It's just a complete mismatch. And so I get called because sometimes, you know, the founder is scratching their head because they're saying, but we love this person. They were an incredible fit for the culture. You know, they were smart. Look, they were at HubSpot for seven years, you know, and, you know, they were a senior member on the growth marketing team. and you know or fill in the blank right there's always some rationalization that says you know we can't figure out why they failed but the net result is is that we haven't gotten any leads and they've been here 18 months and you know we're not really happy with what they're doing so what's wrong you know help us out Then I come in and, of course, the very first thing I do is I tell them, no, actually, it's not the person's fault. And if you fired them, you know, that's a little bit sad because you mishired. They were not bad. In fact, they were very good. You just mishired completely wrong person, you know. So the next person coming out of HubSpot is going to fail to go get someone from Salesforce. They're going to fail because that's not the stage you need. And then people begin to ask, well, what's the stage and how do I know and, you know, help us here. So I get engaged and we start building a function.

Mike: Yeah. And I totally agree with that. I think sometimes previous success can be a real disadvantage if you're moving from one situation to a different situation, because you, you try and do what worked with you in the past, but the reality is the world's moved on and the company working for is different. Absolutely agree.

Mark: And it is complicated. I was listening to some folks on an interview show last week, and they were observing what we know to be true, is that The problem is, is that if you're bringing your playbook, and they were talking about in the context of like CMOs, it's well known that CMOs churn faster than any other chair in the C-suite. And so they're having a discussion about why that is and then what CMOs should do. Like, you know, and one of the big takeaways was that stop bringing your playbook. By very definition, the playbook that worked, even if it is a similar phase, similar scale, same industry, they're two different companies. By very definition, there is going to be a different set of tactics. You know, there's going to be a different set of plays that need to be executed in company A versus company B. And too many senior leaders come in with kind of their playbook. And how many times do we hear, well, this is how we did it. Well, you should run from somebody who says that. That's what I've learned anyway.

Mike: Absolutely. I agree. And I'm interested now, Mark, when someone calls you in, how do you go about prioritizing and building a marketing plan? What's your process to start from the ground?

Mark: Yeah, good question, because like, well, wait a second, if you're a virtual CMO, you work with all these companies, don't you bring a playbook? Of course, there is a set of established, I like to think of more as like frameworks, because the way that I think of a playbook versus a framework is a little bit different. A playbook is a set of tasks or activities that you basically don't deviate from. you might deviate slightly but basically you have step one then you do step two then you do step three maybe step four can be split to an a and a b path but basically it follows right that's a playbook and you know those of us that played sports like you don't deviate from the play you know the play is the play a framework is different though because a framework is a way of thinking that you apply on some prescribed challenge or some objective. And that way of thinking comes with tactics that you execute, of course. You know, like email marketing and email newsletters and the email channel is absolutely a tactic that you need to deploy. But saying that we always wrote our newsletter in this manner, we always use this voice, we always sent it on Tuesdays exactly at 3.34 p.m. Eastern, you know, as a play may or may not be the right thing to do. But executing well on the email marketing channel, of course. It would be probably fairly unusual to say, oh no, we don't need to do email. And so I think of it as frameworks and that's how I approach it. And I really default to first principles at the end of the day, Mike. I have just found that marketing is problem solving in a lot of cases. And if we approach from a first principles, then we start by, are we producing the value that the enterprise needs us to be producing? And the value, it might be direct translation into leads. I mean, obviously, it's revenue, right? But it could be leads. There can be other ways that, based on the context, the business model, et cetera. But that all comes back to first principles, right? So if we say, wow, marketing is not keeping the sales team fed, well, let's look at what is our sales engine? How does that engine work? Do we even have the right sales engine that we're deploying against the market? And in so many cases, we don't. And so marketing is viewed as failing, or marketing is the whipping post. And in reality, we need to go back to the go-to-market, which is why I almost always am involved in go-to-market strategy and go-to-market leadership, almost always. And 9 out of 10 of the companies that I work with I'm anywhere from, you know, involved to an influencer to even very closely working with the founders, the founding team, the executive management to look at and to make decisions around go to market, because marketing is not divorced from the go to market plan.

Mike: Now, absolutely. And I think you're absolutely right that kind of, you know, trying this cookie cutter approach doesn't work. Yeah. But having said that, I'm going to have to ask you, what do you think is maybe an overrated channel, overrated marketing tactic in B2B? Is there something you feel that actually people are trying that really you've not seen working?

Mark: OK, I would have said events, but people have woken up to events. But before the pandemic, you know, I'll even say that some people should be very thankful to the pandemic because it saved them from making many, many more years of incredibly costly and just wasteful expenditures in events. I worked with one company that for two of the major trade shows, they were spending in the $400,000, $450,000, $500,000 a year. And by the way, this was after cutting back from like $700,000, $800,000, $900,000 in a single event. Single event. This wasn't their whole events budget. This was one event. And here's the here's the amazing thing, Mike. I mean, this just just blew my mind. You know, mind blown is that they did not have data on even one deal that had been furthered in the pipeline as a result of their last event they went to. And yet, and yet the marketing manager who was over events was absolutely insistent would have died on the sword that if we don't go with at least the same presence or even increase our presence, the industry is going to think we're dead. But that's one channel. The second channel, which is, again, this one though, people are still flushing money down the drain, Google AdWords, Google Ads. If you are buying Google Ads, I have to challenge you, they are incredibly hard to defend. Incredibly hard to defend. Go into your Salesforce instance and map, map your leads. Look at your CAC payback period. I just haven't seen an example yet where somebody can prove that there is ROI. I mean, you're just not going to get there. So I would say Google AdWords, um, you know, or just Google in general, stop it. Just stop it. It's, it's an absolute waste, absolute waste.

Mike: I think that's interesting. And we've seen campaigns that really haven't been very good. And I think one of my biggest frustrations is where you're spending money on Google ads and you're top of the organic search results because all you're bidding on is your own brand terms. So I think, you know, it's a difficult problem because attribution in Google ads is relatively easy, particularly if you've got online sales, but showing it's incremental revenue rather than revenue you've got already is very hard.

Mark: Yeah, now just, you know, for anybody who's like, well, hang on, you know, like, does that mean all paid is dead? No, not all paid is dead. So this is channel specific and it depends on what your intent is. So, for example, too many B2B marketers are running effectively direct response ads. Nobody wants to get a demo ad. The ironic thing is if we think about our own behavior, and you know, we all work for companies, right? So you think about your own behavior, you need to buy something for your business. Are you really clicking on get a demo? And then is that actually how you made that last purchase decision? Like, if we're really honest, the answer is no, we're not clicking on it. And even if we did, it probably was because it was for a product that somebody had already told us about. So then you're like, okay, fine. I did click on the ad. I did actually legit attend a demo, but I would have just gone to the website and signed up or I would, you know, like I would have found it. So it's not like I was just stumbling along, but using paid to promote content. in ways that I might normally not get that organic reach. Now that is, sometimes it's hard to do. And depending on the niche that you're in or the market that you're in, I'm not suggesting that you can just buy traffic, you know, to your white paper. Also, you have to have content people care about, right? And it has to be meaningful. But that is an application where paid traffic can be very useful. But if it's effectively direct response, you know, give me your, um, you know, your email address to download my white paper, get a demo, you know, kind of your very typical transactional direct response kind of mechanism. I'm just finding, at least I found in the markets that I'm working in, um, doesn't work.

Mike: And I think, you know, one of the problems is, is that marketers get measured on certain KPIs. And the KPI quite often from sales is, well, we need demos, because when we demo something, we sell it. And the answer is, yeah, through the normal sales process that works. But if you try and game the system, just get as many demo requests as possible, the quality is very different. And I think That is a challenge, particularly for marketers in the enterprise environment, where they have fixed KPIs. To some extent, to progress in your career, you have to optimize for the KPI rather than optimize for marketing success.

Mark: So it's true. The sad thing though, is, is that it keeps that marketer stuck doing the things that are working increasingly less. And it doesn't give them the knowledge and the experience to grow in the tactics and the strategies and the, that are actually going to allow them to go into another company and do something meaningful.

Mike: And that's, I think, an interesting challenge and some really good advice for people thinking about looking for a new role. I'd like to finish on something positive. So what's the best bit of marketing advice you've ever been given?

Mark: Get into the field. Know the market. Know the customers. Know how they think. Know what they care about. Know how they make decisions. And all of this is like, well, yeah, of course, of course we have our personas, you know, we've gone out and done our studies like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know you have. And chances are somebody doing that work did go out, maybe did exhaustive interviews, you know, maybe traveled, maybe shadowed the sales team, you know? So of course, somebody in your company did that, but was it you? How well do you really know like how that customer thinks? How are they making decisions? Yes, they're telling you one thing, but what are they actually doing, you know, quote, behind closed doors? I'll tell you this right here is the number one turbocharger, the supercharger to a career, to a marketing career.

Mike: I love it. That's amazing advice. And I really appreciate, you know, all the insights you've given us today, Mark. It's been fantastic. I mean, if somebody is listening, they'd like to contact you, you know, maybe they've got a question. Maybe they are looking for a virtual CMO to scale their company. How could people get a hold of you?

Mark: Yeah. So my website is growthstage.marketing. And I I've got just a ton of resources up there, you know, for marketers who might be wanting just some more. I mean, there's no shortage of, of wonderful resources out on the internet, but, uh, I am, I am proud of some of the things that I've written and put up there. So, um, growthstage.marketing and then LinkedIn, just Mark Donnigan. You will find me.

Mike: That's awesome. Mark, thank you so much for being a guest on the podcast and sharing all your knowledge.

Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes or on your favorite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at napierb2b.com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

by Natasha Websdale