Author: Natasha Websdale

A Napier Podcast Interview with Molly Bruckman - Mutiny

Molly Bruckman, Head of Growth Marketing at Mutiny, a website personalisation platform, shares some top tips on how marketers can effectively leverage personalisation to enhance engagement and drive results. She also explains the potential pitfalls of over-personalisation and how it can negatively impact marketing efforts.

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• Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com

About Mutiny

Most Marketing teams can’t play a meaningful role in breaking through to target accounts because the 1:1 marketing strategies that work don’t scale, and what scales doesn’t work. Mutiny helps B2B companies generate pipeline and revenue from their target accounts through AI-powered personalised experiences, 1:1 microsites, and account intelligence. Backed by Sequoia Capital, YCombinator, and CMOs from leading tech companies, Mutiny is rewriting the Go-To-Market playbook.

About Molly

Molly Bruckman is a customer-obsessed marketing and CX leader. With 10+ years of experience building personalization, CRO and ABM teams and programs, Molly thrives on developing creative solutions that propel marketers to new heights. Her journey spans diverse landscapes, from nimble B2B startups to dynamic B2C enterprises, orchestrating growth programs across various channels such as web, email, community and events - always with an eye for innovative strategies.

Time Stamps

[00:44.9] – Molly discusses her career journey from mathematician to marketer

[05:44.4] – Molly explains what Mutiny does.

[06:32.0] – Molly discusses the best data points to base personalisation on.

[12:03.5] – Molly explains how over-personalising can impact marketing efforts.

[17:41.0] – Who can benefit from Mutiny?

[18:55.1] – How does Mutiny effectively promote itself?

[29:19.1] – Molly shares the advice she would give to someone starting their career.

[27:41.7] – Molly's contact details

Quotes

“Marketing strategies that work don’t scale and the tactics that scale don’t work." Molly Bruckman, Head of Growth Marketing at Mutiny.

Follow Molly:

Molly Bruckman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mollybruckman/

Mutiny website: https://www.mutinyhq.com/

Mutiny on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mutinyhq/

Follow Mike:

Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/

Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/

Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.

Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Transcript: Interview with Molly Bruckman - Mutiny

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Molly Bruckman

Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today.

Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from my Napier. Today, I'm joined by Molly Bruckman. Molly is the Head of Growth Marketing at Mutiny. Welcome to the podcast. Molly.

Molly: Thank you so much for having me my.

Mike: Well, it's great to have you on. And you know what we'd like to do first of all, is get a bit of background about people and understand how you got into Mutiny. Well, so can you use give a bit of a description about what you've done in your career and how you've ended up at Mutiny.

Molly: Yeah, absolutely. So actually, I found my way to marketing through math, which is a little unconventional, but always kind of had a love for math growing up, like the numbers, the quantitative, like how all systems work together. And then I also like, have this creative side, I've always had a creative side. So I was in the drama club growing up, I was a figure skater. And I've like, always sort of just liked to create. And so I after, like, graduating with a math degree, I joined a experimentation company where I was an analyst. So I was like, learning how to test and create new experiences and analyse the results and look at web data. And so it sort of like blended those two worlds for me. And fast forward a little bit, ended up at Mutiny, because basically have the same skill set. So I was the first second hire at Mutiny. And basically, our vos Ally was looking for somebody who had both sides, like the left brain, the right brain, somebody who could do the quantitative side, but who also had customer experience. And I'd been working as a consultant. So I had the customer experience in the programme building aspects. And then also new web, and conversion rate optimization personalization, really, really well. And so yeah, I decided to take a really big leap, join, fly across the country, I was in DC at the time, I moved to San Francisco, and and join a startup as basically like the second employee of the company, to build out our CX team, but actually like how we engage with our customers, how we help them. And back in the early days, we didn't have product yet. So it was a lot of sort of r&d and figuring out what our customers need. And then working with our product team to build that. They grew up our CX team. And then I moved into our marketing org to actually like, do even more creative work. So start to build some education and content and activation programmes with customer base. And now I'm sort of blending the two together at leading our customer experience team and continuing that kind of education advocacy evangelism path that I was building in the marketing. org.

Mike: That's awesome. And I love people who find their way into marketing from more technical disciplines. I mean, I used to be an engineer when I started my career, so, uh, I totally get the attraction of marketing.

Molly: Yeah. I think the blend of like, just understanding how different pieces work, but then having expression over how you communicate, that just really brings a lot to the table. And just depending on what you're marketing, sometimes the technical side really, really helps you. I'm marketing to marketers, so I don't need to be that technical anymore.

Mike: I love it. And also, you're actually not based in San Francisco anymore, you're based in Germany. So tell me a little bit about your trip to Europe and, um, you know, how you find working in Germany.

Molly: Yeah, I didn't spend enough time to come up with a creative backstory there. So I guess I'll tell you the truth. Actually, I can tell it dramatically, there was this wild global pandemic event. It was insane. You've never seen anything like it. But yeah, we were at the time, we were eight people at Mutiny working out of basically an apartment in the mission. And we were growing really, really quickly, we were going to outgrow that space, nobody could go into the office anymore. And so we all you know, went to a work from home model. And San Francisco, sorry If anyone loves San Francisco, but it just deteriorated as I was there. And so I was happy to get out. I was happy that we were like moving to a remote model. We started hiring people anywhere in the world. And my husband got an opportunity in Europe, he chose to come to Munich, which is why we're here today. But he's he travels all over Europe and we both actually travel a lot. So really take advantage of the like, work from anywhere kind of mentality.

Mike: Amazing. We've kind of hinted at what Mutiny might do. But could you just briefly give an explanation of what Mutiny does and how it helps marketers.

Molly: Yeah, absolutely. So I think where we're at today in kind of the marketing world is that marketers can't really play a meaningful role in breaking into target accounts because the one on one marketing strategies that work don't scale and the strategies that scale don't work, where they're sort of left in a world where they can choose 10 accounts that get this one to one really special, bespoke treatment. And then everyone else sort of has to just like, maybe get some scale treatment. And so Mutiny actually helps B2B companies generate pipeline and revenue from their target accounts with AI powered personalised experiences, one to one microsites and account intelligence. So really, really helping our customers actually scale that one to one activity to many, many, many more target accounts.

Mike: So what you're doing is you're taking some existing content, maybe enhancing that with some data from perhaps the most relational CRM system, and then producing something that's purely customised to that visitor on the website. Is that Is that a good summary?

Molly: Exactly, yeah. So we, we integrate with first and third party data sources like your CRM, like you mentioned, marketing automation, on the third party side platforms like sixth sense, clear bed that can tell you who anonymous visitors on your website are and help you customise those experiences. And then I don't know if I don't know what category this is in, but like, many owned data sources, as well for like, which sets up pages people are looking at and starting to build an intelligence layer on what interests people have on the site.

Mike: That's great. There's a lot of integrations there. , what do you find are the most valuable attributes to personalize on then? What, what's the data that people pull in and it really makes a big difference to their results?

Molly: Yeah, it depends on the business, I think, you know, where I'd start, if I were advising a new customer or somebody to build a programme is start with how your sales team is segmented. So probably they're segmented by region, maybe they're segmented by vertical or industry. Usually, that's for a specific reason, right? That's to keep the account intelligence and learnings that you're getting across the industry consistent and make sure that those reps get better and better and better at selling into that market. And so if you can map your ABM strategy or your personalization strategy in a similar way, where you can kind of apply marketing tactics to those same segments, tends to be really effective. As more of a broad like generic rule, I would say industry personalization always performs really well. And again, depends on your business. If you have, you know, a lot of reference customers already in a certain industry or not, you're gonna do better. But industry personalization does really well, company size, personalization. Also, you know, the way you speak to a startup versus the way you speak to a large enterprise is completely different. You're going to talk about different sets of use cases, you're going to use different language, you're going to talk about different value prop so so that one definitely matters a lot too. And then buying stage, I would say is another like critical way to be personalising. So when somebody needs to sort of be solution informed, like you need to teach them about the problem you solve. And as they move through the funnel, you need to start changing your messaging to how you solve the problem, and why you and not your competitor. So you can get really custom based on, you know, how far somebody is in their buying journey with you.

Mike: That's great. I mean, there's a lot of things you can do there. So maybe you could dig just a little bit deeper and explain, you know, how people might achieve that personalisation, what they might change on the website, or what, you know, kind of experience a visitor might get that makes it feel like the website is really personalised for them.

Molly: Yeah, definitely. And this, this depends on the channel of distribution. So somebody comes into your website, let's say clear bed or six cents matches their IP address to accompany and then you know, which company they're coming from. If you change your headline to, Hey, meet me good to see you're there. Like that is way too much for like somebody who just came to your website on the first time they're on your website, they're gonna be like, very creeped out and confused and concerned. So don't do that. There's definitely like a right and a wrong there. But where you find the sweet spot is basically using all of the data you have as intent signals to help you adjust the message to get closer to what they might be looking for, though, maybe you look at Mutiny, and you say, Okay, this is a smaller tech company in the mahr tech space, they are probably working on scaling right now. So we want to give them a message about how we can help them grow faster. And then we see a headline that says, grow faster with blah, blah, blah solution, whatever it is, versus like a large enterprise comes and maybe you're trying to replace another solution, or maybe you are, you know, you need bigger access controls for large teams like you can change that message and those value props depending on who's there without being over the top. So I think like headline messages like text on a site, especially obviously content above the fold, like that's always going to be what matters the most. And then CTA is so CTA is that match should kind of buying stage stage of funnel you know, don't ask somebody to take a demo when they don't know who you are yet, tell them learn more and like Teach, you know, send them to a video where they can learn more. So you can kind of map your CTA your asks per your, your visitors based on where they are in your binary funnel. And then social proof, I think is the other really big thing. So mapping your social proof to companies that are similar to the company that's visiting your site, whether that is by industry or by company size, showing the right set of logos in your logo bar showing the right case studies showing the right like competitor takeouts and things like that can really, really help that whole experience just jive with the person that's looking at it versus be like over the top built for you. Now, if you're talking about microsites, that's a different story, because that is built for you. And so that's where you get to be over the top. These are kind of one to one pages, usually used in ABM programmes that you send or your your BDR SDR team sends out in email sequences, and they're saying, Hey, I built this overview for you. And so at this point, now you have all the freedom in the world to like, use their name, use their title, go way over the top with personalization to say like, Hey, Mike, I built this page for you. Here's three things I think you're struggling with, here's how we help. Here's some case studies and playbooks they picked out for you, and a link to like book a meeting with me my Calendly link is at the bottom if you want to chat. So these ones you can get really, really personal. But it depends on how you're distributing that page and how people are getting to the page if it's organic, or if you're kind of bringing them in.

Mike: So that's fascinating. You said something there that I think maybe a lot of people don't think about.  The level of personalization depends upon the context. So what someone's expecting, if they just come organically to the website, then over personalizing can actually be a bad thing. You know, is that something you actually see reducing performance, where people over personalize and it feels, as you say, a bit creepy?

Molly: I mean, it depends on your industry. So if you are like selling to engineers, and security people and type people, you can't do that, right, they're gonna be really creeped out. They're gonna be very concerned, they're gonna be you know, they care a lot about privacy. So you have to think about who you're marketing to. Now I'm, I work at Mutiny, I sell a personalization software, I can call you by name, because I'm selling the product that shows you that I can do it. So it's like a little, you know, it all depends on the context at the end of the day. So I think in general, like different industries value different things. And actually, I've even seen a security customer of ours tried personalising using the company name on the inbound experience, and it didn't perform well. And they changed the audience to only tech companies. And then it performed really well. So I think also, like tech companies tend to kind of value the more creative, personalised experiences and things like that versus like, education, health care, they don't want to see their information on the page.

Mike: that's fascinating. I think it's an extra layer that maybe people don't think about when it comes to personalizing content. So great advice, Molly.  Um, just moving on, you know, in terms of how Mutiny works, understand it. I mean, you as a marketer really have to select what gets personalized. So you might say, well, this is the headline that's going to change.Is that how it works? And in that case,  Does it take a significant amount of time to actually get up to speed and work out how to use Mutiny and what to choose to personalize?

Molly: Yeah, that is, for the most part, how it works today, although AI, obviously, is an area that we along with everyone else is investing quite heavily in and continuing to build in. And so one thing that is like very clear to us, and our strategy is, we need to allow marketers to be in the driving seat here. So we're not going to be like a black box platform where you just say like, click headline change, and AI does all the work and it changes all of these things, and you have no control over the message or what actually goes out there. So we're always going to leave the end decision up to the marketer where the marketer can, you know, AI can maybe suggest a lot of things and you can approve and say yes and no to certain things. But it should be your copilot and your helper and not just like, oh, cross my fingers and hope they do on brand or don't tell a lie about our product features or anything like that. So yeah, I think like technology will continue to is best there for new customers that to your question on like, does it take a lot of time to learn these things? We actually pair all of our customers with a Mutiny in house growth strategist. And that is a team that I grew and I built and I felt very, very passionately about but I have not hired CSMs I have hired marketers, and so everybody is here to actually be an extension of our customer team and make sure that they are implemented. think best practices and steer them away from, you know, using the company name on the in the headline like we wouldn't recommend and you know the sort of some of these best practices that we've seen, our team is here to help guide and give ideas and share best practices and things like that. And as we continue to grow and develop more and more of that gets absorbed into the product experience as well.

Mike: That's great. And the other thing I really liked about Mutiny when I looked at it was, it's not driven from a marketer's opinion. It's very much driven from data. So I've got to ask, you know, How often do optimizations work and how often do the marketers have to go back to the drawing board and, you know, maybe tweak what they're optimizing to get best performance?

Molly: Yeah. And I told you, I have a conversion rate optimization background. So I was running. Before I joined Mutiny, I was running experimentation programmes and a B tests for large large enterprises, like a gap and Oppenheimer funds and big big brands. And they'd be pretty happy with a 1%, lift, 3% lift like pretty Thrall lifts. And in general, I'd say like one in four, or one in five tests would win. So you have like a 25% ish when, right? The cool thing about personalization, so on the CRM side, it is very life. What if we change the headline to this, what if we change the button to get started, it's sort of like random ideas that you are trying to find a better solution for the average person, but the average person doesn't exist, right? Like, there is somebody who is like 10 feet tall, and somebody who's two feet tall, and to say that your average person is four feet tall, which you know, the math doesn't work out there. But you get what I'm saying. Like, you can just take the average of any given person, it's really about how different segments are behaving. And so the difference with personalization is, you're actually segmenting your audience, you have a specific person that you're building for not an average person, and you know a lot more about them, or you can do more research about them. And so you're actually crafting an experience for a specific person rather than some broad idea of the average visitor on your site. And so they actually win more like three and four times. And the lifts are more like 30% to 50%, even like 100% Plus left, so you're much, much bigger gains. And you're winning a lot more often.

Mike: With all this testing and with the ability to, to really scale up the personalization, I mean, does this mean Mutiny is really an enterprise product? You need a decent amount of web traffic to really benefit from it.

Molly: So I think this again, comes down to how you're going to use the product. So if you want to identify who's coming into your website, segment those audiences and then deliver personalization. Yeah, the trade off there is yes, while you win more often, you get big lifts, you get big lifts for smaller segments. So although those smaller segments are your ICP, so it's a good trade off. At the end of the day, you are cutting down your audience size. And so for inbound website, personalization, you should have I would say like 10,000 monthly visitors, at least on your site in order for those segments actually be meaningful volume for you. But for outbound personalization, like these microsites I was talking about that's only constrained on how many emails your team can send, right, like your BDR team, your SDR team can send and so there's no kind of traffic requirement for that use case. You just have to have a muscle around outbound email.

Mike: Interesting, so lots of flexibility. But it's been great talking about Mutiny Molly. I’m also interested  in how you promote the product yourself. I mean, you're responsible for growing the business to a large extent. So one of the most effective tactics you find to get marketers engaged and interested in Mutiny.

Molly: Yeah, so this is the fun part about marketing to marketers where, you know, you get to use your own product, talk about your own product, to sell your own product. And so I think I have something cheeky on my LinkedIn, like, I use Mutiny on Mutiny to grow Mutiny, or I'm a marketer, selling the market, just selling a marketing technology to marketers and talking about marketing or, you know, something that is just very confusing. But I think, yeah, we get that benefit of using our own product in a lot of our programmes. And so we really think about how do we bring more people to our website so that we can tailor that experience and show them the product in action when they come to our website. And then we have a really, really big microsite strategy. And actually, our microsite product was built out of our own early days when we didn't have website traffic we had, I think, like 2000 people coming to our website every month. And so we needed a way to talk about ourselves to market ourselves. So we built our own microsite product in order to help us get in front of the right people because we're targeting B2B marketers and CMOS You know, marketing leaders like we have a very defined ICP and audience, if we can build a page that demonstrates the product to them and show them, we're always going to do really, really well. So our own ABM programme brings in 60% of our pipeline and Mutiny. So it's really, really effective for us even to this day. Now we've grown our website traffic quite a bit too. So we can use both use cases and Mutiny. But in the early days, it was really on the microsite side, outside of using a Mutiny, like customer stories. And creative campaigns, I think are two really important levers for us. So putting the customer at the centre of everything we're talking about, making them the heroes showing, you know, marketers always want to learn from marketers. So making our customers look like heroes telling their stories, getting those out there, it helps our customers continue to activate and it helps our customers like brand build and further their personal careers. And then it also helps the market and everyone on our team kind of grow from there too. So actually did launched an ABM MBA programme, which is a fun play on words, but it features some of our customers that features non customers too. So just ABM errs, who are doing really, really good work and dives into the programmes that they're building and developing. So that one's really fun. And then creative campaigns. This is like a passion child. For me I love like big creative campaigns. In the fall, we ran a survivor programme was was spelled with AI in the middle sister of AI vert. And it was all about kind of educating around AI teaching workers how to use AI in their workflows. And it was gamified. So there was a big game platform, there was a $10,000 prize at the end, we had a lot of partners involved. So really, really just fun creative through like running games and different types of activation than just like a boring webinar programme.

Mike: I love that. I love that you're, you're so obviously having fun with some of your campaigns as well. That's brilliant.

Molly: I think that's the one thing like anyone looks at mutinies brand. They're like those guys have a lot of fun over there, huh?

Mike: It's awesome. I mean, you did mention the survivor, the AI campaign. Um, I, I'm interested, you know, how do you personally use AI in your marketing or do you use AI in your marketing?

Molly: Oh, yeah. I mean, I always have at least one probably many chat up T tabs open for real things and for fun things. And for life things like sometimes I'll just be like, Hey, here's the ingredients I have in my fridge and in my cupboard what can I make? I was thinking of soup is there what if I added ginger to it? Is that good or bad? It'll like make me recipe do I have Mutiny are like logo and mascot is a raccoon. And on social media, we have you know, with mid journey and things that have popped up, we've got like an AI version of the raccoon that's looks a little different than our logo, but he's pretty consistent. And whatever setting we need to put him in, his name's at chew. And I made an issue custom GPT builder so I trained it on all of our like brand approved to choose so that I can just say like, like we launched a Mean Girls campaign to go back to having fun with marketing. We, we didn't Mean Girls theme campaign, and I made all of these versions of it chew in like the classic mean girls to us, like, you know, at the cafeteria and things like that. So that one's super fun. And then for work, like with a BM MBA programme, for example, my process for getting to very high quality episodes is I do a prep session with the speaker. And we sort of like pre plan, what our agenda is going to look like and shape the story together because I don't want to just come in and like ask the same leaders all of the questions, same questions, I want to kind of dig in and tell a unique story with everyone. So we find that angle. And then I have a chat GBT process where I basically like turn that into the agenda for how we're going to speak together. I turned that into the copy that I need for the landing page. I turn that into the speaker notes and everything I'm going to need at the end of the day, so I have all of that processing kind of work through a workflow there. And outside of chat, GBT, our team also uses copy AI, which after the ABM MBA episode is recorded and published, we will put that through a copy AI workflow to come up with several different blog posts, newsletter posts, social posts, where we can like chop that up. And then on top of that, it's all of the AI that's just built into the tools that we're already using like Riverside and you know, production tools and things like that.

Mike: That's a lot of AI actually. That's interesting to hear how proactively you're using AI for everything from image generation through to written content and, and uh, podcasts. So, fascinating you're so bought into it.

Molly: Yes. And, and actually, uh, Stu on my team, he's our head of content. he sets a goal for himself to try a new AI tool every single week. So he's always testing something new and, and actually like replacing workflows. Like he's using copy AI now, but he was using something else previously. And just, you know, he won't settle, he'll keep going until he finds something that really, really works and has the right quality of output for us.

Mike: So that's amazing. I mean, trying a new AI every week. That's a real commitment to learning and testing new technology. this has been really interesting money. I'm sure I could talk for a lot longer, particularly about AI. But there's a couple of standard questions we'd like everyone to answer just to see what people think. So the first thing I'd really like to know is, what's the best bit of marketing advice you've ever been given?

Molly: I would say actually, not just marketing advice like generic advice, but simplify, very true for marketing too. But simplify, you get one ask you get one CTA, you have to prioritise what is that one is going to be. And if you get a good result, you can have another Ask you can have another CTA. And that's true for marketing funnels, marketing, language and messaging. But also, when you're working with customers, or communicating really with anyone, right is, you know, don't give people a laundry list of asks and things you need from them, simplify it to that one thing, and you're going to be much, much more likely to get a good result.

Mike: That's, I mean, that's great advice, I think, in a lot of areas. So I love that. We have another question we'd like to know is, what advice would you give, but particularly to one person who's just embarking on a marketing career?

Molly: Yeah, I think from a student perspective, I don't know if I would recommend like, go and get a degree in marketing, I think it is just the landscape is changing so rapidly that I don't think that is necessarily like, how you can set yourself up to like, become an online marketer, like the textbook background isn't necessarily going to help you as much as like, on the job experience. What I would say is probably really helpful is psychology or behavioural economics, or, you know, more kind of education time spent on how people think how people understand and process information, how they behave. And then you can learn the specifics of the marketing to whatever role industry tech stack, the company that you're in, is using, but if you have the foundation of understanding how humans operate, and how humans think you will, you'll be able to learn the tools and apply different strategies that are current. I mean, now it's like every six months, were like so rapidly developing and changing that, that I think you just need to stay on top of the market.

Mike: that's great advice, and I think it's important to remember that, you know, even people who have done the degree,  their, uh, knowledge, their information very rapidly ages. I mean, I actually qualified as an engineer, and we had exactly the same problem all those years ago, that, you know, by the time you finish your degree, what you'd learnt, it was already becoming out of date.

Molly: And I think that, that's absolutely the case in marketing.Yeah, for sure. And that's kind of cool to see. Right. Like, think people know it in the tech field that like, C++ isn't really the future anymore. But But yeah, I mean, marketing is moving really, really quickly to I'm sure all of business, every role kind of has that that vibe as well.

Mike: Absolutely. Molly, it's been fascinating talking to you and thank you so much for all the insight you've given. I mean, if somebody wants to learn more about Mutiny or maybe even ask you some questions, what would be the best way to find out more and perhaps get in touch?

Molly: Yeah, LinkedIn, feel free to follow me connect message me. I'd love to meet you, people. Awesome.

Mike: Molly, thank you so much again for your time. I really appreciate it. Thanks for being a guest on Marketing B2B Technology.

Molly: Thank you so much for having me.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes, or on your favourite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at Napier B2B dot com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

by Natasha Websdale

A Napier Podcast Interview with Lisa Rees - Avnet Silica

Lisa Rees, Director of Marketing Communications at Avnet Silica, joins Mike for the latest episode of our leading B2B marketing professionals series. Lisa discusses the importance of understanding the customer journey, why having a non-technical background can be an advantage, and emphasises the value of measuring success based on metrics such as the customer lifecycle rather than just lead generation.

• ‎Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
• Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
• Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com

About Avnet Silica

Avnet Silica, a division of Avnet, is a European semiconductor distributor and specialist that supports projects from idea to concept to production. Avnet Silica acts as the connection between customers and suppliers, providing creative solutions, technology and logistics support.

About Lisa Rees

Lisa Rees is the Director of Marketing Communications at Avnet Silica and is responsible for all aspects of marketing and communications, including supplier marketing, digital strategy, media, content and events. She joined Avnet Silica after ten years as Director of Marketing Communications at Avnet Abacus.

 Time Stamps

[00:49.2] – Lisa discusses her career from the French chamber of commerce to Avnet Silica.

[02:52.8] – Lisa explains what Avnet Silica is and what they do.

[04:16.3] – Lisa shares why having a non-technical background can be a benefit in marketing.

[07:49.3] – What marketing activities make the biggest impact at Avent Silica?

[13:48.2] – Lisa discusses how to measure the impact of marketing.

[24:51.9] – How is Avnet Silica incorporating AI into its marketing activities?

[21:10.6] – Lisa shares the best piece of marketing advice she’s ever been given.

[22:58.7] – Lisa’s contact details

Quotes

“Hang out with your customers… get to know your customers inside out. Every opportunity you can take to understand your customer is going to give you everything you need to be a good marketer." Lisa Rees, Director of Communications at Avnet Silica.

“If you're just measured by leads, you're probably not generating the right outcomes... the biggest return for the business tends to be in a small number of very high-quality leads.” Mike Maynard, Managing Director at Napier.

 Follow Lisa:

Lisa Rees on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisa-rees-9548484a/

Avent Silica website: https://my.avnet.com/silica/

Avnet Silica on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/silica-an-avnet-company/

Follow Mike:

Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/

Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/

Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.

Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Transcript: Interview with Lisa Rees - Avnet Silica

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Lisa Rees

Mike: Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. I'm Mike Maynard, and today I'm joined by Lisa Rees. Lisa is the Director of Marketing Communications in EMEA for Avnet Silica. Welcome to the podcast. Lisa.

Lisa: Thank you, Mike. Thank you for having me.

Mike: Great to have you on. I'm really excited because I think you're the first marketing leader we've had from our channel company, on the podcast. So I think we're going to talk a lot about you know, how things work in a B2B channel. But before we do that, can you just give us a bit of background tell us about your career? And why you chose to join Avnet?

Lisa: Absolutely, yes. So a little bit of background, my career, I think, I've always worked on my life, or very early on, I've always had a strong work ethic. I originally started my career in France, I studied French and economics at university. And I ended up working for the Chamber of Commerce in France, because I wanted to kind of mix the two, the two elements of my studies together. And then I kind of had a weaving path, I worked in a PR company, I worked in an insurance company. But ultimately, I was trying to get to Tech, I did a little bit of a business development at the start of my career. And I was also trying to get to marketing. So eventually, I made it into tech marketing. And that's how I ended up at Avnet. Silica. So a winding career, but I got to where I wanted to get to in the end. And why did I join AF net? I've met silico it's, for me, it's a, it's a really exciting place to be. It's, you're looking at the future developing all the time. That's what's interesting for me, and it's fast moving, you know, I love to know, kind of almost feel like I'm telling stories for the future. It's a little bit like we're in science fiction, maybe. But I think it's about the exciting developments for the future.

Mike: And so, is that really, you know, why you wanted to get into tech is it's all about the excitement, the speed of movement, rather than, you know, without wishing to be disparaging about some of your previous companies know, some of your industries you've worked in, have been notoriously conservative when it comes to marketing.

Lisa: They have and that's what I definitely wanted to get away from without any disrespect. But yes, ultimately, I wanted to work for a forward moving company. I was also interested in where that tech can take you from, from a society perspective. You know, I think I want it to feel like I was adding some value to the world. So I think from a tech perspective, there are advancements in terms of sustainability and was interesting for me.

Mike: That's great. I mean, it's a really positive view of tech. Before we go any further, I think we ought to really just clarify what Avnet does that mean, some of the people listening might not be familiar with the company. I'm sure a lot of people are because they're from the tech sector. But can you just give us a little bit of background about who you are, what you do and where your position is in the industry?

Lisa: Absolutely. So I've Avnet silica, well, I haven't actually chorus part of ASP NET. So a bigger corporation that said, global, my role is within Avnet, silica, and Avnet. Silica is a distributor of hardware components. Traditionally, that's where we sit in the middle of the technology design chain, I would say the technology and supply chain. So kind of like with the vantage point on what's what's happening, we work very closely with many manufacturers to distribute their hardware products. But I think things have evolved as well over the last few years in terms of we're no longer just looking at delivering the parts, we're actually looking at offering a whole kind of value added service, we're working with customers, right from the start from the ground up, I would say, because now we're implementing IoT, and AI and security and, and looking at different ways to bring value to those customers that maybe they never had before from one partner. So it's also about helping them innovate faster, helping them get to market faster. And I think that evolution for me is really exciting. It's kind of like from something that was traditional to something that is way more kind of holistic, I would say in terms of of planning and working with customers.

Mike: But I guess I mean, there's a lot of technical services you're providing, and you're not technical by background, as you said, and in fact that that's not unusual. I mean, I meet a lot of people in this sector that are not technical. But I mean, what challenges does that present you when you're working in a sector that is so driven by engineers?

Lisa: I mean, for me, I see it as an opportunity. I'm first and foremost, I'm a content marketer, I'd say that's where my passion lies. So I just want to sit and hang out with the engineers, it's what I've always wanted to do. I think it's this kind of ideal blend, really, of finding a subject matter experts that understands what our ideal customer base is looking for what they need to know. And then it's pulling that information. And then I'd bring my value as a marketer in terms of kind of how you position it, how you pitch it, how you get that content to the right people in the right places at the right time. So I'm always trying to find out what's the value prop behind what we're trying to say. And I think because I'm not an engineer, I can ask what other people might say, are really silly questions. And I can always start my sentence with, Hey, I'm not technical. Can we just go into that a little bit more. And for me, I think that brings a value that maybe I wouldn't have if I were a technical marketer.

Mike: I love that. I think you know, the way you see yourself working with the technical specialists and bringing that market expertise, I think is it is a way that a lot of great marketers in the sector operate. So that's really positive to see that you're almost using this non technical background. And I know you do understand quite a bit of the technology now. But using it as a bit of an advantage.

Lisa: Absolutely. I always say, I know a little about a lot of things. That can be a dangerous thing sometimes. But I think as long as you making those subject matter experts, your friends, and they very much are, you know, the people that I go to that I listened to, that I spend so much of my time talking to, and where my passion is to be honest, that I think it does work.

Mike: So moving on a bit more to your role and what you do. I'm always intrigued when people have rows, like, you know, director of marketing, communications and cover the whole of emir, and are in a company with a very broad range of products. I mean, how do you prioritise and start building a plan when there's so much to cover?

Lisa: It's tough, it is tough. If I'm honest, I'd say there's two, there's almost two prongs. Ultimately, you have to remember what we're here for, it's very easy to get bogged down, I would say in all the things that everybody would like to throw at you. Because when you're marketing, you're kind of like the frontline for anything that anybody needs. But for me, what's the main thing you want to do is you want to drive some pipeline, and you want to drive the revenue, and you want to disrupt you want people to know you and know who you are. So it's that, you know, is that focused on top of the funnel? And then getting to the bottom of the funnel? And how can I really work with those people. So I think you just have to keep sight of what's important, and what's going to make a difference to you. And I'm always looking to, to stand out to be different, not for different sake, but because I'm not trying to catch other people at their own game, I think that you can't do that. So it's like, I'm always the that mindset, if that if everybody's eggs, you've got this egg, you know, it's like, that's the way you stand out a little bit. So I'm trying to find a way to, I think you can disrupt a lot of the time with a tone of voice, even, I'm a very personal oriented person. And I think sometimes it's amazing what a tone of voice can do for your brand. You can be approachable, or friendly or knowledgeable or expert lead, or you know, all of those things. And you can change that just by the tone of voice that everybody uses within the business when you go to market. So I try to focus on, on the things that are going to move the needle, if I'm honest.

Mike: So that's interesting, I love you know, that focus on the detail as well as that very broad portfolio of tasks. But when you say, move the needle, I mean, can you unpack that? You know, do you have particular things you're trying to achieve in the marketing? Is it you know, all about lead generation? Is it about branding? Is it about positioning and perception? What do you think are your priorities?

Lisa: It's really interesting, because that priorities change, of course, over time, and I told you at the start of the chat that we're having about, however, that silica has moved from, I'd say a traditional supplier of hardware components into more of a kind of a consultant solution kind of approach. And I think getting that message out to the market takes a lot more time than you realise, you know, it's kind of constantly reinforcing it, constantly talking about it, constantly making sure that the white people are hearing it. So I think a lot of the focus for me is on that awareness. But ultimately, you've got to drive this balance, tread this tightrope between driving leads and driving demand generation, I was as I would call it, and building an audience takes time and patience. And I think focusing on leads can be sometimes a short term activity. And I think it's focusing on building the right kind of leads, and you have to do the demand generation and build that audience and put the real effort into kind of getting that content out there to drive the right kind of leads, I would say, and for me, that's the best the perfect balance.

Mike: I love that. And I think in B2B, some marketers are a bit guilty of thinking of demand generation as handing over a spreadsheet of leads, but you've made a real distinction between driving demand and generating leads. I mean, do you just wonder, maybe unpack some of the things you do that generate demand that maybe don't necessarily directly generate leads? I'm really interested in, you know, are you not dating everything to you know, every time someone downloads something, you generate a lead, presumably, you're taking a slightly different approach.

Lisa: I am taking a different approach for me, you know, kind of gating a white paper is, is a bit old school. And I like to make sure that I'm, you know, work, working with the way that people like to work. And I think so much is available now to our customers at their fingertips is that if I make the customers jump through hoops to get the stuff that they need, it kind of like creates this barrier. And also, I don't want 1000s of leads. It's not about volume for me. I think if you if you're measured on leads, you're driving the wrong outcomes. So I think you know, of course, I want those good leads, I want those sales qualified leads. But I think that I get those by giving away some of my best stuff free you know, if people read really cool stuff that's answering that their problems or their pain points are addressing the challenges that they have building that trust with you and you're building the authority and I think then people are more likely to come to you so I am focused on that inbound, then you have to make it really easy for people Pull to contact you, how do they get to you? How do you how do you create an urgency in the form that they fill in, over and above a normal query from somebody that maybe is not so valuable as it leads. So there is always that kind of like making sure that if you do focus on demand generation and inbound, that you know how to deal with it quickly and effectively, and straightaway, put it to the right person so that if you've got a really high value, potential customer coming to you, you hit them hard straightaway with what they need. See what I mean. So I think there's there's a lot of balancing going on. But ultimately, I'm focusing on educating to build that authority that said that the right people engage with us.

Mike: I love that. And I mean, I think that might be a little controversial for some people. But But I think you're absolutely right, when you said, you know, if you're just measured by leads, you're probably not generating the right outcomes. I've seen that where there's been an over focus on lead generation. And quite clearly, the more leads you generate, the lower the quality is where actually the biggest return for the business tends to be in a small number of very high quality leads.

Lisa: Exactly. And I say also, the more you create a disconnect with sales, you know, I want to work with sales. I also think about this attribution model where people go, Oh, marketing, at the first touch your marketing had the last touch, or, you know, it's a marketing source lead, ultimately, I'm lucky that I'm in a business that doesn't measure me like that. But the business focuses on alignment. So as a business, we're bringing together all the different facets of the organisation that can work together to drive the right outcomes and drive the right leads. And I think I'm very lucky to be in that environment that understands that it's a collaborative approach to lead generation rather than each individual feeling the pressure to kind of go, Hey, I've done a great job, look at all these leads up bought in. And actually, that's not helping sales at all, you've got to have this disconnect, where sales go, I can trust you, I trust that your what you're bringing to me as a marketer is going to be the stuff that's valuable for me to spend my time on, that is so important, I think, within the business, so that we don't have silos.

Mike: I love that. And I think quite often, you know, marketing's doing their job, when the role of being a salesperson becomes easier. And it's not necessarily throwing them a million, you know, contacts, they have to phone up who are actually probably not interested. It's about making the customer have this positive perception that when the salesperson, you know, talks to them, the customer immediately wants to work with avidex, silica, or whoever it is, rather than, you know, asking, well, who are you? And why should I work with you? And, you know, that should be the marketing job?

Lisa: Absolutely. And, you know, top of the funnel, absolutely, you know, we want to tell people our story, we want people to come in, and we want them to believe in us. But ultimately, where I need to spend a lot more effort, and a lot of more of my time is towards the bottom of the funnel. And don't get me wrong, I do gate stuff, I do wait, you know, you have to sign in to come to a webinar where you've got an expert talking for 45 minutes, we only need to sign in once and then you can access everything. So we still make it easy. But then working with those customers who are at that stage who are maybe working with reference design, or you know, they're looking at samples or I know they're actively involved in in kind of putting a design together, it's well how can we help those customers? How can we be of value to them? And I think getting that piece right, is where to put a lot of your effort as well.

Mike: So it was interesting. I mean, you seem to be saying, you still gate but it's right at the bottom of the funnel rather than, you know, higher up. I mean, that must be a much better user experience for prospects you're engaging. But how do you approach measurement? How do you measure how well you're doing? If you're not generating those leads?

Lisa: It's a really good question. Right? If the age old question for a marketer, you know, how do you know that all of your effort is giving you all of your results, and the course is a challenge, I've always stuck to the idea that if you try to measure too many things, too precisely, you can drive those wrong outcomes, you know, clearly lead numbers is is an easy metric to measure. It doesn't mean it's the right metrics to measure. It doesn't mean I'm doing a great job as a marketer. So I think you can look at sales qualified leads back to my point is like, what leads or sales going great job, that's exactly who I want to talk to. This is the kind of lead I'm looking for. So for me, that's probably a good measure. You can go further. I mean, we have a long lifecycle from design to actually, volume production could take, what 18 months, two years, but if you can get an idea of the lifetime value of those customers. That's an interesting metric. But again, because I'm not focused just on marketing, attribution, I'm focused on collaborative attribution. Again, you know, it's hard to say I did this, I got that bit, right. And it's not actually what I'm trying to do are ultimately focused on pipeline and revenue. And I think, therefore, those sales qualified needs for me so it's kind of like the bit that makes the difference.

Mike: I think you've put out beautifully and that's a really great approach. I think a lot of people could, you know, learn from so thank you for that. I'd like to change tack a bit and find out about you in terms of managing a marketing team. I mean, you're in silica which is A big company. And that's part of F net, which actually is a gigantic global company. How do you get a marketing team across, you know, different sub brands inside such a big company actually driving in the same direction?

Lisa: It's a really good question. I think driving in the same direction, it's all about a vision. I think if you've got a vision, and people understand how they're contributing to that vision, that strategy for success, that strategy for growth, everyone has an idea about where they go. In fact, I would say that's how the whole of silica is one, you know, we have a president that brings a very clear vision, and every single person in the business knows what they're doing to contribute to that vision and that strategy for growth. So it's a culture within the company, I think, which is really successful, and really works. And I think the same goes for, for me and my marketing team, you know, we know what we want to do we know our tone of voice, we know what our message is, we know how we want to feel like an open company that's very focused on people. It's focused on expertise, it's focused on knowledge, collaboration, proactiveness, all of those things, you know, we as a team live and breathe that. And I think that's my job is to spread that message and make sure that everybody feels a part of it. And I do it with a big tonne of energy, that's the only way I can describe it is, you know, I sell it as a concept maybe, and we feel together, we're succeeding. And for me, that's, that's what works. I'm also very collaborative with my colleagues in other speedboat companies with global marketing teams with the corporate marketing teams, I'm very much as I'd say, a team player, I enjoy collaborating with people across the whole business and where they can bring me value and I can bring them value, and we can not reinvent the wheel. That's the way to go for me. So I'm very open, I would say in my approach to working with the people.

Mike: I love that I mean, that there's definitely a theme of collaboration coming through this interview, which I think is great. I'm intrigued to know, I mean, you've got a marketing team, what's your management style? How do you go about, you know, motivating and developing the team,

Lisa: I am very focused on individual growth and individual development, you know, I want to hire people better than me. I don't feel threatened by having amazing people in my team. In fact, I feel completely kind of calm, the fact that I think, okay, now I got all these experts. And to be honest, we are a very close knit team. So everyone has their area where they do Excel, where they focus with what they're good at. But each of us at any point will step into each other's shoes in a way that's very kind of fluid, and very easy to do. So I think it's the fact that there is this commitment to grow. And I try to not be the first port of call for the business, you know, that I think that's how it possibly was in the past. And now I'm thinking, don't come to me, we've got a brilliant webinar expert, we've got an amazing events person over here, we've got a social media expert, you know, go to those people directly. They know what their vision is, they know what their strategy is, they know when to say no, they know when to say sure I can support you with this, you know, what do you need. So I think it's about giving them the opportunity to be visible to grow to develop, and I'm very committed to that. It's important to me.

Mike: That's fantastic. And I think it's always a sign of a good manager when they start talking about how good their team is. So I'm sure you're too polite to actually say anything, but I'll absolutely say that. I'd like to move on. I mean, unfortunately, Malin, I feel we always have to, you know, visit AI. Lots of people have very different views on AI. I'm interested, how are you currently using AI within your marketing team and for your marketing activities?

Lisa: We obviously, it's a really good question. Because it's a new ik we've only probably been using it for what a year and a half. We started using it a little bit to maybe write some strap lines to write some copy for webinars. But very quickly, it became very samey, and I got very frustrated with it very quickly. So that's out. You can't replace individuality, creativity, understanding the value of the problem. I don't honestly believe for the moment that AI can do that. So I can see straightaway when when the headlines been written by AI, and I can see whether it's been someone in my team or someone in the competitors team. I'm like, Oh, if we see unleash again, I'm gonna literally go. So I think where AI will take us is, it will be like this sort of hyper personalised marketing, it's going to be much more efficient. I can say, tell me the competitive landscape for this kind of technology. And it will tell me in a flash, tell me where who's got the competitive advantage, you know, who's bringing out something new, I mean, to go and search for all that information and put together exactly what you're looking for, I think is super efficient. It's super personalised, it means that we can be much more focused on what we do the customers, I think we go faster. But for me, I'm not scared of AI. I think you go with AI and you develop with AI, you'll be fine. But I think there's always going to be that role for creativity. I mean, AI can't develop something, as far as I know, that's not been created already. Right? You're looking at a pot of stuff that's out there. If you want to disrupt you got to keep ahead of the curve. And I think, for me, I embrace it.

Mike: That sounds really positive, you know, both in terms of the benefits of AI I know also in terms of the fact that you still see this very important, crucial role for people within a marketing team. Yeah,

Lisa: I really do. I think that creativity will always be important. I have seen people's roles kind of feel a little bit eroded though, for example, mostly with around if you look at SEO and Google, I mean, how much do people search on Google anymore? Do they just ask that DPT instead? So I understand that there are threats as well, it's not all rosy. But I think it's just about learning to quickly adapt and find new output for that creativity and make sure that you know, you're, as I say, working with it, rather than against it or feeling too threatened by it.

Mike: No, thank you. That's a brilliant piece of advice. I'm really worth your time. And I know you're really busy. And you've been very generous to spend time on the podcast, there's a couple of questions we'd like to finish off with. And the first one is also about advice. So I'm interested to know what's the best piece of marketing advice you've ever been given?

Lisa: Oh, hang out with the customers without a doubt, just get to know your customers inside out. Every opportunity you can take to understand your customer is going to give you everything you need to be a good marketer, I think it's that insight that you can't replace, don't think you know them, go and actually learn about them. That's always been my best piece of advice.

Mike: I love it, that's quite a popular piece of marketing. Last time we tried to meet up was at a trade show and you're super busy, clearly, you know, actually taking your advice and talking to customers. So So that's brilliant. The other thing, you know, I'm interested in is what about someone starting their career in marketing? What advice would you give them?

Lisa: I mean, you know, marketing is always changing, you know, so I think be adaptable, be flexible. But also, it's never too early to start implementing to start only your go to market strategy to start showing your, your abilities. You know, I don't think you have to stay in a box. But always listen, always listen, start by understanding the customer journey. And I think as long as you go back to my, you know, my last point, as long as you understand that the customer, you can start to really kind of build your influence, build your trust and do it as early as possible in your career. You know, you don't have to have years of experience to make a difference in blockchain. That's what I would say.

Mike: That's amazing. I think that that's, you know, again, it's really positive advice. I love it. As I say, I appreciate your time. Is there anything you feel we could have covered that perhaps I've missed during this interview?

Lisa: I mean, now, I've really enjoyed chatting with you, Mike, I think we've covered all of the important points for me as a marketer. So I think we're good.

Mike: That's brilliant. If people have questions for you, Lisa. Or, you know, maybe they're looking for a place to work where they can grow and develop and get responsibility. What's the best way for them to contact you?

Lisa: I definitely say on LinkedIn, it's where everything happens these days. Anyway, find me on LinkedIn, Lisa Rees for Avnet Silica and connect with me drop me a line more than happy to chat.

Mike: Lisa has been fascinating. I've really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you very much for being a guest.

Lisa: And thank you so much for having me, Mike. It's been a pleasure.

by Natasha Websdale

A Napier Podcast Interview with Georgios Grigoriadis - Baresquare

Georgios Grigoriadis, Founder and CEO of Baresquare, an AI-driven analytics platform, discusses his career journey from data scientist to founder and the development of Baresquare. He shares how the tool leverages AI-powered insights for marketing analytics, the challenges and opportunities in B2B marketing, and the potential of AI to empower individuals in marketing rather than replace them.

• ‎Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
• Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
• Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com

About Baresquare

Baresquare redefines data analytics by transitioning from traditional dashboards to proactive, AI-powered insights delivered directly to the right person at the right time. Baresquare pioneers a new approach where manual dashboard analysis and human intervention are unnecessary for identifying crucial business events and their underlying causes. This frees marketers, strategists and analysts to focus on creative endeavors and expanding business opportunities while providing insight that no other data set can provide.

About Georgios

Georgios Grigoriadis is a data advocate and the founder and CEO of Baresquare, a tech startup turning data analytics on its head by shifting from traditional dashboard-based analysis to proactive AI-powered insights, delivered directly to the right person at the right time. Fueled by the belief that data should empower, not overwhelm, Georgios built Baresquare to transform complex analytics into clear, useful answers for anyone to understand.

 Time Stamps

[00:46.1] – Georgios discusses what led him to build Baresquare.

[06:11.9] – How can marketeers use Baresqaure?

[06:48.8] – Georgios shares if he thinks the B2C industry is further ahead in using analytics.

[19:47.1] – Georgios offers some marketing advice.

[17:52.4] – Should young people embark on a marketing career? Georgios shares his opinions.

[24:51.9] – Georgios and Mike talk about the future of AI and its impact on the industry.

[31:48.9] – Georgios’s contact details

Quotes

“Baresquare today is turning data analytics on its head. And, we are not talking in terms of tables and numbers, but rather in terms of words and paragraphs." Georgios Grigoriadis, Founder and CEO at Baresqaure.

“It’s very frustrating when those insights, they don’t find themselves driving action. But action, it’s more a matter of communication. It’s bringing people together and aligning their understanding.”  Georgios Grigoriadis, Founder and CEO at Baresqaure.

Follow Georgios:

Georgios Grigoriadis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/georgiosbaresquare/

Baresquare website: https://baresquare.com/

Baresquare on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/baresquare/

Follow Mike:

Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/

Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/

Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.

Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Transcript: Interview with Georgios Grigoriadis - Baresquare

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Georgios Grigoriadis

Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today. Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today I'm joined by Georgios Grigoriadis. Georgios is the CEO and co-founder of Baresquare.

Georgios: Very happy to be here. Thanks for the invite.

Mike: Great having the podcast Georgios. So just to start off with, can you give us a bit of background about your career, and in particular, I'm interested to know when you move to America and why you decided to make that move?

Georgios: Absolutely. My background is in computer science and math, not an electrical engineer, which I know that it's your background, but still, it's rooted very well in in math and science. But I quickly realised that the most compelling puzzle for me to show was not about gold and algorithms, but rather what makes a product a success. So I have always been fascinated by data, information, and drawing conclusions and the power that those insights and information can have. In hindsight, I think that I was naturally drawn to the stories that data can tell. And as I told you, and the power that they contain, but at that time, my understanding my interpretation of this fascination was on what was possible and not possible with the data that I was available. So as right now we are having this artificiality in intelligence crop yard, where people are putting together some solutions that work and some others that don't. Back in the day, it was exactly the same with data driven tools, approaches and processes. So I was working very much on now, that part of the industry, where today we know these technologies are Adobe analytics, or Google Analytics. And the challenge was how to put together data visualisations that they can drive results. I advocated for verbalising data, it was rather a radical approach where everyone was trying to visualise data. But I did so because I thought that communicating insights with natural language was more impactful. So I moved to London from Greece, and establish that an AI software company and in London, I found out what our positioning was. Now, this is the the point that I moved to New York, while I was trying to discover what should be our go to market approach. And I mean, New York has a very unique vibe, as you know, in a sense, performance under pressure of the melting pot that Manhattan has it's it's more about human skills and creation. And that is making it totally different from the West Coast startup centre. Now that the go to market team has been established in the US, I'm enjoying the Mediterranean climate and cuisine. I am right now. I'm based in Athens, Greece, but this will probably change very soon again.

Mike: Well, having experienced winter in New York, I think you've made a good decision going back to Greece. So certainly for the winter. That's a great move. So lucky. So talk a little bit. I mean, you said you were interested in really explaining data and information in words, how did that come about? And how did that lead to Baresquare becoming a product.

Georgios: So it's very frustrating for people that are putting with a long hours to really understand what they're what data have to say. It's very frustrating when those insights they don't know find themselves into driving action. But action, it's more a matter of communication. It's bringing people together and aligning their understanding. Now, every team every company is having people with different skills, and data and deep data science knowledge is not really a common language. Natural Language is a common language. So at the end of the day, we always had to rewrite what we're finding and take out the detailed data science out of the insight for our misunderstanding. So, at the end of the day, no matter what was the analytical algorithm used to drive the result, the end result was always a couple of sentences, that the more that they communicate that the true meaning of the finding in business terms, the better. So we said, why not just go to the last step, and trying to recreate a new language that is successfully communicating those insights.

Mike: So it sounds like what you're trying to do is almost cut out that data scientist, and let people who need to understand how to use the data, get information delivered in the language they use is that we are trying to do,

Georgios: I would say, this is how we are framing it today. Back then it was more about not having those pressures, insights slip somehow, and a natural language filled, the best way to communicate.

Mike: That's great. So I can see how people would benefit, can you give us some examples of where bare square would be used, and how people particularly marketers might use it to help them in their jobs.

Georgios: Today's turning data analytics on its head. And now we are not talking in terms of tables and numbers, but rather in terms of words and paragraphs, we take their traditional analysis that is done on dashboards, which most of the times is reactive. And we are using these AI powered insights so we can deliver to the right version, on the right moment in time, on the wrong way of understanding. The insight. Shown wereBaresquare has been particularly successful is in companies that are having a lot of data volume and complexity. You see, the more complex the data set, the more we thrive as a platform within that complexity, because that's the pain that we eat is taking out that complicated and bit.

Mike: And so would a good example would be companies that are running large Google Ads campaigns and then trying to track the performance across the website is that the kind of thing people are doing.

Georgios: So typically, marketing analytics is the starting point. But if it is to look at experience from the user side, imagine that one morning you receive a Beresford notification on your phone before you go to work. And the platform is informing you that there was a sudden drop on the conversion rate, let's say 20% on a particular product. And that has a reference point, let's say that the reference point is, since the day before, our AI has investigated the issue and determined that the root cause is a recent price chains on one of your main competitors. That is what have made the product offering less compelling. Now, our platform not only can identify the problem, but also provide recommendations on how to address it. And an easy way of solving this problem is to enable a promotion, that is bringing down the price and making the product compelling again. So that's how an analyst or a subject matter expert, a marketer, if you like they can leapfrog into action in the beginning of the day.

Mike: So that's interesting, because, you know, you're not only integrating over the company's analytics, but you're also looking at competitors pricing. I mean, are you having to integrate with a lot of different packages to pull that data? How does that work?

Georgios: So first of all, it's important to highlight that Baresquare is not collecting data, we don't have a tag, in other words, similar to what Google ads or Google Analytics is doing. And that is because we think that collecting data, it's more or less a solved problem. What we are doing instead is to quickly understand what are their behaviours, see them in a digital journey that otherwise would have been blind spots within the dashboard. And then once we have that, that's our starting point, then we can interrogate many different datasets. For example, we can pull in experience analytics, those datasets that really show where people are having a problem during their digital journey. Also, we have product analytics, or CRM data, which is more about if people are keep on engaging with the digital experience or the product and so on. Now, at some point, and especially with the latest technologies of autonomous, dedicated AI agents, we can really use those little guys to go and gather more contextual information, go and visit the website, see how the website is being rendered on a specific browser. And also, if the product availability of a competitor or the price, or even the weather, a public holiday, a promotional calendar, could also be part of the explanation of the root cause. And that is what is compiling the why as very much people in the analytics world, like to call it to really understand why. But what's very exciting is that now we have a new era that is taking out the subject matter expertise. So even people who are adjusting the beginning of their career or in the beginning of this job engagement, just during the onboarding period of their lives, perhaps they don't really know how they can influence the business goals or the revenue. And this is where an LLM can also provide very detailed personalised next steps on how to cross check the validity of the results, and how really, they can act.

Mike: That's interesting. One of the things I feel compelled to ask is a lot of the examples you you're giving, they feel quite orientated towards the business consumer market rather than B2B market. I mean, do you think the consumer market is further ahead in terms of using analytics? Or do you think it's in a position where, you know, maybe it's easier to get data because there's a lot of online transactions?

Georgios: I think it's because of the second, the B2B marketing still has a lot of ambiguous touch points. And many of these are within the physical world. Let's think of an exhibition, a conference. Now, that part of the experience is not very much digital, or at least not yet. And therefore, there are many of these data points that somehow are being not captured. However, on the other side, what is unique with B2B is the longer sales cycle that happens many of the times, and these touch points, they can very much exist within a CRM database, where in the consumer market, of course, you can have CRM and look into the lifetime value of a customer. But it's less of a complex problem. While in the B2B world, it is very much so. And also, I would say that the element of personalization, it's way more important on B2B Cause the offering needs to align with the narrative of the business, the pain of the business, work with the ambiguity of all of the different data points that we've just talked about.

Mike: That's interesting. So I mean, from that, do you think that actually B2B is got an opportunity in the future, to actually make better use of analytics understand data more, and therefore generate better campaigns? Or do you think that B2B is always going to struggle because of the longer sales cycle and the physical touchpoints?

Georgios: No, on the contrary, I think that companies that are employing B2B marketing will have way more of room to manoeuvre and provide new innovative ways to engage with customers. Taking that back to the example of the conference, think how underutilised The stand can be within a conference, think about how difficult it is to match someone who is interested for technology and a technology vendor and finding about correct person within the organisation that can explain the solution. Exactly for the needs of the customer. This is where personalization can go totally on that on the next level.

Mike: It sounds great. I mean, the one thing I'm wondering now is bare square is actually quite complex. It's pulling in data from a lot of different places and using AI to produce conclusions in natural language. I mean, is this something that that's a really very expensive product? Or is it perhaps more accessible to businesses?

Georgios: Better square is a company about is a startup which means that we are working on our go to market and we have found the best way for us to reach out To the market right now. And it happens to be that the best approach for us is to go for enterprise customers show also our licence and our business model is better optimised for enterprises. However, this is just a go to market approach. And it means that this is where we can prove our value in a better way. It's not to say that it's only that enterprises that they need this type of solution, because at the end of the day, it's also a matter of their reference for an enterprise has an efference point of many analysts, many people who are working with dashboards or complex datasets on a daily basis. However, if we think about smaller organisations, those teams, perhaps they don't have dedicated resources. So in proportion, with the complexity for them that they have to deal every day, it's as Ben, I would say that the application of AI powered insights go across all different types of businesses. And even for us as consumers or people by ourselves, I can totally imagine solutions that are operating exactly with the same logic, and they are applying to our everyday lives.

Mike: I love that that sounds like a bit of a hint as to where you know, possibly in the future, you might go moving from the enterprise level down to more mass market. I'm interested there any other features that you're thinking of you'd like to add to Baresquare, to you know, either help your customers or improve the performance,

Georgios: I would like to take you straight into what excites me the most. And that is, for some reason, session replays. I don't know what kind of beef I unconsciously have with session replay. But perhaps is the facts about where it comes to data collection. And how we are utilising these datasets. Perhaps these technologies that are capturing absolutely every move of the cursor is where I see that we are under utilising the dataset. In a way, I think that is more like a graveyard of data points that are being utilised only as much as people have time to stand in front of a screen. And looking into session replays. Of course, you have already some solutions. The best one that people might know is Microsoft clarity, and their experience analytics platform of rds using GPT technologies to write a quick summary of what happens into that session. However, what I'm flirting with, and I'm talking very strongly with my product team is whether we need to proactively record absolutely every session, or is it something that we just need to do on an ad hoc basis, or even more just employee agents to go and we create a session with all the different paths that a user could take, and then use these NLM technologies just to summarise where exactly that problem became a hurdle for the user.

Mike: That's fascinating. That sounds like not only you're going to save some poor marketers from watching session replay after session replay, which is not the most fun job in marketing. But also you're actually going to be able to preempt those potential problems. If you have the AI navigating around, then presumably you can see problems before even your customers encounter them. Absolutely.

Georgios: I would say that it's definitely something that exists within our roadmap. But then again, going back to the state or for where we are as a technology and what we need to introduce first, I'm afraid that it's not the absolutely next feature that we are going to bring to life. But definitely it's it's the one that could generate this biggest change when it comes to when and how we collect data.

Mike: I love that Georgios. So love the the dreaming about what might be possible in the future, rather than just telling us about an incremental feature enhancements. So that was a great answer. There's a couple of questions we always like to ask people say, one of the things I'm really interested in Georgios says, What's the best bit of marketing advice you've ever been given?

Georgios: That's a good one. That's an excellent question. Well, first of all, I think that it makes sense to do a little bit of definition of what marketing is. And for some people Will like myself that I was taught marketing in the beginning of early 2000s. Marketing was all about Kotler and the four P's, price, promotion, placement, and product, of course. And then we have the more contemporary definition of marketing, where people these days, they think of marketing as the overall go to market most. So finding the exactly the needs, and matching them with solutions. And this is where tools like the business canvas, that approach and all other contemporary ways that we have to understand the business, they'll notion that I really love the most when it comes to marketing, is thinking of marketing being all about finding ways for people to find him. So I think it applies because both has consumers, buyers or working on on behalf of a company, we really like to have the sense of freewill. Now we can debate on a philosophical level, whether free will exist or not. But we all love that sense, especially in the in the Western world. And always we operate within the limits of our understanding of our current pains and interests. And now we would like to have the sense that we are driving the show, we would like to solve a problem whenever we feel that that problem deserves our time and resources to be sold. And it's only natural if you think about it that in the past few years, we have seen this rise of self serve product lead approaches. So marketing, it's all about discovering where to leave breadcrumbs for the right people to discover you. It's a more natural, organic, perhaps even a respectful and fun way of contacting marketing.

Mike: I love that I love that approach of it's not about pushing it to people, it's about helping them come to you. And I think, you know, that probably reflects a lot of the sort of theories around inbound marketing, for example, that, you know, has been very effective. Certainly, you know, a lot of HubSpot users are really into it. Of course. My other question, George is around advice for young people in marketing. You know, we're very keen at Napier, to get young people into their marketing career. But what would be your advice to a young person if they were wondering whether they should go into marketing or not as their career?

Georgios: This is very relevant. And I'm thinking a lot about it. Just because I have a nephew, who just decided that he would like to go and become a developer, he would like to study computer science. And in the same week that He's declaring that we have Devin AI, just coming in and claiming that something like one out of six different types of tasks that an engineer needs to solve with gold today, perhaps there is an end to end automation for these weights, poses the question, Will marketing still be relevant for people that are young right now and they are kicking off their career? So I was thinking that a lot. And I think that people should absolutely pursue a career in marketing. And let me tell you why. In essence, I think perhaps it's not the popular opinion. I mean, I would love to hear yours. But I think that marketing, it's all about competing over limited resources, it's always going to be there. And people are always going to be competing for finding a better way compared to everyone else, to reach to that audience. So in a way, marketing will never go out of fashion. Perhaps people should be informed about what they think that marketing practices are today, the most certain thing is that those practices will not be the same in the future. But the overall idea, the fact that we try to appeal to words of the limited time and attention that people are having and be better than everyone else, this is going to stay.

Mike: I love that. And I personally think you know, marketing could become a lot more interesting as a career, particularly as AI takes out a lot of less exciting jobs, like sitting and watching session replays a great example of something that I don't think any marketer can say they enjoy, but sometimes you have to do it. So I agree. I think there's huge opportunities in marketing for a career. It's going to be tough. I think it's going to be more competitive, but so well, everything else as AI comes in and impacts it.

Georgios: How do you understand AI and marketing these days, Mike?

Mike: It's really interesting. So our business is actually quite niche. So we focus on deep tech business to business clients. And AI is less effective in very specialist areas like that, presumably, because the training data is much less than in more general areas. So we're using AI in all sorts of different ways. And I think the reality is, is that actually everybody's using AI in marketing, if you're using Google ads, there's AI tools in there that Google have implemented. And I think that's quite a good model. You know, people, when they go to Google ads, don't think about using the AI, they think about using the tool and the AI is kind of hidden away. And it just does good things, it just optimises your ad, and you can be at home sleeping, and Google is still optimising your ad and still using AI. And I think that's a very interesting model going forward that more and more, you know, my belief is we'll see AI as a separate standalone thing disappear. And I actually think what we'll see more and more AI just get buried into tools. And so when you're using a tool, more will be done for you automatically. But you won't think of it as using AI. So definitely, that there's gonna be issue as to how many marketers or computer programmes or anyone else we need in the future. But I don't think AI strength is actually replacing people completely. I think it's replacing people on the very repetitive, the straightforward, the less creative jobs, but I have no idea whether that's you know, 10% of marketers 50% of marketers or 90% of marketers will be replaced, it will be interesting to see.

Georgios: And that is quite a lot to unpack. But if it was to, to offer one thing that I found very compelling in what you said, it's also the the zeitgeist of these days, we think of AI as an entity by itself. And it's, it's crazy, it's like thinking knives as an entity by themselves. It's like if people versus tools or people versus knives is a thing, which is not. At the end of the day, the value is created by people. And it's being accepted, endorsed by other people shown. AI is just just another tool. And of course, this is something that all of us believe, and we rationalise it like this. But when it comes to the most emotional responses, we still respond as if we are talking about a replacement. So I was thinking quite a lot, perhaps we need to start rebranding AI. And thinking it less about technology, and more about a vertical, perhaps, where we unpack the human needs in a very deep way.

Mike: I think that's interesting and probably more reflective of the truth of AI Georgios but I do wonder whether there's so many companies that are trying to sell this dream of AI replacing, you know, as many workers as possible, that actually perhaps overhyping it is in their interest at the moment.

Georgios: And also, I wonder how this could also become a self fulfilling prophecy, the more that we are thinking AI as a replacement. And the more that we start marketing, AI as a replacement, the more it can become a replacement. So a few years back around 2018 2019, I joined a conference when it was all about policymaking in AI. And the discussion was all over the place with the famous, dynamic or far or whatever an autonomous car should do in case of absolutely having only two paths forward killing one person or killing a group of people. There was a lot of debate when it comes to that. But at the same time, Cambridge Analytica was operating, and almost publicly announcing the way that they are breaking down and creating micro segments based on the Big Five ocean cycle metric classification. So those guys were already talking about their methods. And at another point in the world, we are having a discourse when it comes to all what an autonomous vehicle should do. Now, my point here is that there is a matter of sequencing. The next problem that will we'll try to solve or understand or perhaps create a blueprint. And a few years back, we had the option to start thinking about data Schumann Nolan's watch going on with intellectual property. And of course, should be earning some sort of commissions or having at least intellectual property owned or what has been written. And we didn't do that, we still like to be talking about the autonomous car dilemma. And it feels to me that we are doing the same thing right now, we can be just thinking about how to apply AI in such a way that we can enable more people to pursue their dreams, even if they don't have the capabilities. Data driven marketing is a thing, but not all people understand data. And we have people that really would like to change the world. And they have an idea that they would like to communicate to the world. And AI for them can be the absolute tool to overcome their lack of competence. But if we don't think as such, if we don't think about how to roll out these solutions, in a way that we can empower people, and we create more and more narratives of replacing people, then eventually, the solutions that we will create, will be replacing people and making them obsolete. So I think that there is something to be said about that self fulfilling prophecy of AI. If we think it in a different way, the future can be different.

Mike: I think that's super positive and a great way to end the podcast, the thought that, you know, what we should be doing with AI is helping people achieve their dreams, not trying to replace them. And that's what's going to generate the best product. So thank you very much, Georgios, it's been amazing if people would like to, you know, learn more about Baresquare, or, you know, indeed ask you about some of the things you've said on AI, what's the best way they could contact you.

Georgios: Go on the website, baresquare.com. This is where we are going to be keeping people up to date with what we are doing. And I'm trying to become more and more active on LinkedIn. With the time that is being allowed to me it focus on that extra version, while at the same time, we are preparing for a really big product launch of our new platform. As I told you, it's trying to enable as many people to go out and explain to the world what they are doing and why they think that there is a solution, product or idea. It's worth the attention.

Mike: That's fantastic. And I certainly look forward to the launch of the new platform. And I'm sure a lot of people that don't enjoy data, but love marketing are looking forward to it. So, Georgios Thank you very much for being on the podcast.

Georgios: Thank you.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes, or on your favourite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at Napier B2B dot com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

by Natasha Websdale

A Napier Podcast Interview with Stefan Debois - Pointerpro

Stefan Debois is the CEO and Co-Founder of Pointerpro, an assessment software that allows users to produce surveys and highly personalised automated reports. Stefan joins the Marketing B2B Technology podcast for a discussion on how the software works and how it can be leveraged for marketing and lead generation.

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• Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com

About Pointerpro

Pointerpro is an all-in-one assessment software platform where users can create online questionnaires and surveys that auto-generate personalised advice and reports into PDF.

About Stefan

Stefan Debois has a background in engineering and has over 15 years’ experience in Enterprise Software. Stefan’s experiences are foundational to Pointerpro, which he co-founded in 2012.

Time Stamps

[00:50.2] – Stefan shares what led him to co-founding Pointerpro and what the software does.

[08:41.2] – Stefan explains how Pointerpro can be used for lead generation.

[11:42.5] – What is the future of Pointerpro?

[17:43.4] – Stefan shares what marketing tactics are used to promote Pointerpro.

[22:50.2] – What is the best piece of marketing advice you’ve been given?

[24:45.3] – Where to go for more information and Stefan’s contact details.

Quotes

“Double down on what works instead of trying to experiment with new things all the time. That doesn't mean that you don't have to do experimentation…but don't fall into the shiny new object syndrome… double down on what works.” Stefan Debois, CEO and Co-Founder at Pointerpro.

Follow Stefan:

Stefan Debois on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stefandebois/

Pointerpro Website: https://Pointerpro.com/

Pointerpro LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/Pointerpro/

Follow Mike:

Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/

Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/

Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.

Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Transcript: Interview with Stefan Debois - Pointerpro

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Stefan Debois

Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today. Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today, I'm joined by Stephen Debois. Stephen is the CEO of PointerPro. Welcome to the podcast, Stephen.

Stefan: Thank you for having me, Mike.

Mike: It's great to have you on. And we're talking a little bit about this later. But actually, it's really interesting. You're actually the CEO point Pro, we've recently signed up as a customer appointed Pro, like the product so much, we wanted to get you on to talk about the product. But before we dig into point Pro, perhaps we can just find out a little bit more about your background, Stephen. So can you tell me a little bit about your career?

Stefan: Yeah, sure. My educational background is engineering. I started immediately after my studies in consulting, and that's where I stayed for about 15 years. I think I started with Price Waterhouse, in 98. That's a long time ago, and then became Price Waterhouse Coopers. And then I switched to CSC, a computer science Corporation, which is now called the exceed or I mean, in that industry does quite a lot of mergers, and so on. Yeah, in consulting, I was mainly involved in large scale ERP implementations, like ERP, like management systems for companies like SAP and the like. And we did implement those systems with large multinationals like Nestle, or Atlas, Copco, and similar kind of company. But then I always had the feeling, or the wish to do something myself to start a company as an engineer to create a product and also create a company around that product. And then, of course, as I was, like, professionally involved with software, enterprise software, and that became the most logical choice also, back then, a lot of the barriers that you used to have to start a software company were becoming less important, like you didn't have to buy your own servers, everything goes via the cloud cloud, and no expensive software, because a lot of development software was available open source.

Mike: And that's interesting. And you've decided to start a company in Belgium and obviously, because you live there, but how is the startup culture in Belgium? I mean, it's not necessarily as renowned as somewhere like Berlin, is it for startups?

Stefan: No, that's true. But it's not that bad. Sometimes complain a lot. But there's a lot of initiatives to support startups, sometimes you have to find which initiative fits you the best. But even back then, talking about 14 years ago, we participated in an incubator programme from KBC. That's a large Belgian bank. And I mean, it's a huge, huge benefit for us, like boats, network, talking to people that have done certain things before, in different areas, legal, commercial, everything. But also just having the office space having, if you go to the coffee machine, that you have someone to talk to, it can sound maybe a small thing, but I think it's important, versus before we were just at home, and the two of us, me and my co founder, and then yeah, we didn't have these kinds of interactions. So I'm gonna say this. Since then the startup culture in Belgium has evolved to has become more like, more professional for the people who consider to start and would not, I would say that this should not be a barrier to start in Belgium.

Mike: That's nice to hear. It's good that Belgium is putting effort to supporting startups. So let's move on to talk about PointerPro, you mentioned you wanted to start a company based around software development. What led you to decide to found point a problem in what drove you to look at research and surveys?

Stefan: Yeah, so first, I wanted to start something in the area of CRM, customer relationship management, because it was close to my experience as a consultant. And then I started doing some research about that. And then I saw like that it were like, a lot of competition in that area. So I gave up on that ID. But in the meanwhile, I started something else just to, like, get used to the state of the art technologies again, because I'm an engineer, but technology as of course, you've often so I started like a quiz app, just as I'll be project to get used to the new programming languages and everything. And that was to call tablet quiz. It was also like the start of the iPad. So quizzes for iPad with like a nice visual, making use of all the possibilities of the iPad, I launched as Yaffe free products and that's got some traction, not only from people who want to make a queries about her grandmother or so but also from professional companies, for example, us that used it for HR events and all the things after a while, and after also talking to these people, we decided to launch it as like a formal company. And then we called it survey anyplace that was the name before. PointerPro, of course, because it was like, besides quizzes, we want also to focus on surveys, and combination of quizzes and surveys. So then that was when the company started.

Mike: And so now, I mean, PointerPro does a lot more, doesn't it, it does a lot more than just do surveys and quizzes.

Stefan: Yeah, exactly. So with the surveys, we, I think we had a good start, because we want to make the surveys more interactive, and more like, we want to improve the experience from the respondents. And then also, as a result, get better and more data. For the ones that organise the survey. And beginning we had some traction went well. But then after a while, we have seen that there was a lot of competition on that market. It's kind of a commodity survey or survey software. So we knew, according to the startup logic, that we had to find a niche that we had to find product market fit, so not just surveys of everybody, sometimes you try, like a certain thing that you want to do, and that you only see that it's not working, then you have really invested some that some time and effort in it. That's why it took from 2012 to 2019. So seven years, that's a long time. I mean, of course, we had customers as well, but the Dakotas, not really spectacular 2019 VM, we have editor, he bought a functionality so that you don't have like only questionnaire. But that's after having completed the questionnaire, that respondent gets a customised report like a personalised report depending on the answers that he or she has given in the questionnaire. And those that was really the killer functionality, or the combination of those two, the questionnaire and report that we needed to find that product market fit.

Mike: That's fantastic. And I mean, just to explain to people what the report does, can you give us some examples of how your customers are using this reporting function? What are they actually doing with it?

Stefan: Yeah, yeah, for example, the common goal is always to automate it twice. Before we deserve it was more like data collection. But now it's to collect the data, that's a first step. But then the data is used to get some, or to extract some customised advice. Like, for example, financial advice, we have a customer of ours, where's the website, free financial plan.com. It's worth looking at it, it's us customer. And there's financial assessment, you enter your data, like your income assets and other details. Now you get the personalised financial advice plan, which can say like, you have to go for this kind of investment, or that kind of investment ends on that quite details. And of course, in that plan, there's also links to other third party vendors who can help you and to implement that advice. So that's one example. Although examples are like cybersecurity, maturity assessments, but also HR. Some assessments have often asked year to date HR, but HR is a minority, but still an important use case like wellbeing assessments, psychological assessments, and so on.

Mike: And I think one thing a lot of companies are doing in the B2B sector is they're using these on my reports or diagnostics, to actually generate leads, it's all about lead generation, isn't it?

Stefan: Yeah, in fact, we have both lead generation for I mean, our main focus for customers is professional services, it's still quite bold, and professional service companies can use it for lead generation Yeah, before to give it to a prospect before someone is becoming a customer, then you can also use it during project delivery, to automate the advice delivery. But the degeneration is an interesting use case, in marketing, I think we have two trends, you have a trend towards a content marketing, like give more educational content to your customers. And then in that way, you educate them and you are seen as, as an authority. That's one trend. And the second trend is personalization. I think, like thanks to data and all the information that you have about your audience, like to try to personalise the message as much as possible. So the assessments are really at the crossroads of those two trends, I think, because you give content. So when, for example, a cybersecurity assessment is on the website of of a consultant that is specialised in that area. People can also the question to invest some time, but they get some useful content in return, which is valuable and which also builds trust. So if your content and secondly I've also the personalization because you don't have That's the advantage against like, a generic white paper about cybersecurity. If I if as a business owner to read the white paper, but like 20 pages about cyber security, I'm not that interested in comparison to when I have like a one pager that says, okay, based on your answer, these are the three things that you have to focus on cybersecurity, and that's exactly what we want to do with our tool.

Mike: I think that's a great point, Stefan, I think that hugely personalised advice. I mean, traditionally, people would have done that by getting a survey, and then having somebody you know, manually go through, make the recommendations, maybe even meet with the client, now it's automated. And it's a really good way, I think, from my point of view, of helping people move along that customer journey a little bit quicker, by automating some of the stages that would have slowed down. So you know, when somebody is in that mindset about talking about their problems, then getting almost immediately some answers. So I really love that I think it's a great feature points Pro.

Stefan:  Yeah, thank you. Yeah, we call it sometimes like, it's fast onboarding, but also like in bits consulting, talk, time to business value, reduced time to business value, what you hear a lot about consultants from from customers is that it takes too long to get results really. And then like this initial face, like the collection of the SS situation, as we used to call it like the current situation, collection about data like and then also giving the first most straightforward advice. That can be of course, shortened thanks to a technology thanks to our tool.

Mike: Absolutely. And what about the future? I mean, is this the direction you see point a pro going in are some features that you know, you're planning to add to enhance the performance?

Stefan: Yes, of course. So when our product vision is that every professional service company that in the future, will offer services to its customers, of course, but besides the services, we also offer a digital tool to their customers, like a kind of portal that a customer can use to log in, and that they can use to do three things, basically do self assessments, to get a personalised advice, and to monitor their performance. So that's easy to say. But we are far from that. If you look at reality, where the consultants are, I mean, we are also customers, from various consultants in various areas. And those except for Deloitte, there is nobody that really has a bottle with like this kind of information that I can use to follow up these things to get advice, and so on. So there's still a lot of work to do. So we want to help to reach that vision for the consultants More concretely, in our product, I think, especially for the performance monitoring, we still have some work to do. So we are going to work on the dashboarding, where the content of the dashboards will not only contain information from the assessments, but also from third party sources, because we see that sometimes the information has to be combined, the assessment is not the only source. So that can be done via professional services also by the customer. That's important. And that's the second important thing is integration, like integrations with other systems. We can do we already do it now. But we want to do it more. Yeah, easier. No coach, so that you can do it without an IT guy or girl. I mean, not that we don't like it. But mostly it's it, it slows down the process so that anybody can integrate our point of sale system will be their internal systems. That's the second thing that we are working on. And then the third thing is also AI. Of course, we think that this will be part of every software tool in the future, including ours to increase productivity from the users. And we see it especially in kind of an assistant, when you're making the assessment and also the report that it can assist in not only the content, but also design. For example, it could look at the design of your website, and you say like, Okay, I'm going to apply the design to the report. And then maybe it's it's 8% Ready, and then the 20 remaining pulsant has to be done by a human, but then still you have huge time gain, of course, thanks to AI. So that's what we're also looking into.

Mike: I love those features, I think like they're, you know, really interesting. And the idea of being able to recreate these diagnostics and reports even more quickly, I think would be super useful. I mean, one thing I'm interested in is, you know, you've mentioned that a lot of your businesses in the consultancy sector, what we're seeing with clients is a lot of product companies are actually trying to really grow their consultancy business. And so that they're they're moving away from being you know, purely driven by selling things and much more about you know, selling their knowledge and expertise. Are you seeing this and are you seeing this also drive more interest from you know, what might be seen as engineering or manufacturing industries? Yeah.

Stefan: What I see I mean in software Companies like like ours, like product companies. And these are not manufacturing companies because we don't make physical things. Of course, what I see is that customers are more and more asking, like for combination of software and services, because I'm convinced the software on itself will not generate any business results as a standalone thing. I mean, you have to activate it, you have to make sure that your users are using it in the correct way. And I mean, of course, you can automate, but you still have to do often some, some services. And then like traditional companies, and then I was in consulting those big companies like SAP and other software companies, but you see now with Salesforce and even in tufts, but also, they do it with partners. So they say, okay, partner, and as a service, and we do the software. And it's been you usually beneficial for those companies, because it allows them to scale. If you have the partner network, you don't have to worry about or services, the partners can do it. And you can focus on as often are we as small company, I mean, we cannot yet afford like such a Partner Network. Also for partners, our software is too small to earn, like a lot of money. So then we tried to do the services ourselves. But these are only the services that are directly related to our software, we are not going to advise on content like on cybersecurity assessment, which questions to ask. So because we are not specialists, our customers are specialists, or we don't want to take over the job of our customers. Of course, I'd like more technical things or design or so we do it also for them. And to have it all in one, that offering has been beneficial for us. Maybe there's also like competitors who are not self funded. Or more under pressure of VCs. VCs don't like services, or they only like, like 10% or so services. And those VC looking over our shoulder so we can do as much service as we want or I mean, we can do it independently.

Mike: That's really interesting, actually, because you're absolutely right. I mean, with startups, VCs are very reluctant to fund startups that are service driven, because they said it's not being scalable. But when you get large, established enterprises, you know, multibillion dollar corporations, they're all moving into the service industry. So it seems to be an interesting time where large companies want to get out of products and small companies want to get into them. I mean, thank you for talking a lot about pointer price stuff. And I'm interested in some other things as well. So I mean, one of the things that fascinates me is when we talk to guests on the podcast, is how they approach marketing. And I'm really interested from your point of view, what are the most effective tactics for promoting point a pro

Stefan: Traditionally, when we started, we have always focused on inbound marketing. So meaning that people find you online, and then come on your website and then see your offering and are interested and get in touch with you and then you can convert them into customer. So in my marketing, more specifically, search boats, organic search, when you just started, just like in the beginning, then it was more like personal network. That is what I would advise also to, to other starters. So personal network to add some large logos, hopefully you have some then in your network, and you can convert them. So we had, for example, big Belgian bank here as a customer in the early days. Now you use that to go beyond your network, because it's important to go beyond your network pretty quickly. Because that proves that you can really make a business on top of it. And then yeah, we started as I said to be content marketing, slash SEO, search engine optimization. Back then it was maybe easier than now I mean, comes more difficult, of course, but we get some traction organically. And then afterwards, when we started the assessments in 2019, the value of our licence or high school became higher, then became worthwhile to do and paid advertising also, especially Google AdWords, some, some other other channels, also, Captiva for software vendors creating interesting, but then the combination of the two organic search, then paid search and then also like the third one is online presence, like for example, on Capitol Hill on G to this review site, and also on all the publications that you are like, literally everywhere, if you type like assessment software that you're in the page results in organic results, and also on third party sites, like tryptophan and Jeetu. That's where we want to be but then of course also other channels that you're looking into now. We already doing those because we are quite dependent on inbound and there is also like it's not infinitely scalable, because there's only so many searches per month on on those keywords which are interesting for us. So now we are trying to do two additional channels like top of funnel more brand awareness and making sure that people know us before they need us. It's easier said than done. So that's the first one. And the second thing is on our existing customers trying to expand. For example, if we have Deloitte, Netherlands, as a customer tried to sell it also in the other countries for Deloitte presents, it would be a pity not to do that if you have these kind of customers, it's easier to get business in existing customer than always having to acquire new customers.

Mike: I love the way you know, obviously, as an engineer, you structure that approach to marketing. And I think it's great that it's a very structured sequential approach and very interesting, really useful lesson for people.

Stefan: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, we try to also measure everything. That's the advantage of course of digital marketing. We try to measure everything like the funnel, the conversions, and so on, depending on the source. That being said, we will also try to do some non digital things like I don't know if you have heard of Jason Lemkin, in one of his podcasts, he talks about 10 marketing tactics that you should apply. And, to our surprise, we almost did none of them. The tour that we are going to do now is one that he said like is do weekly webinar. And do it about you're not only about your product, I mean, sometimes about your product, sometimes about something like which is related to your product, but not immediately about your product. But do it weekly, we do it not bi weekly because of capacity constraints. And does matter if there's only five attendees or so just do it consistently. Okay, for us it of course, we put it on YouTube, and we can do content, repurposing it all the types of content. So that's one thing that we are doing now. And the second thing that we want to do, and that is a non digital thing is what he says is organising steak dinners. It doesn't have to be steak. If you have some customers who are vegetarian. It can also be other kinds of dentists. But face to face, dentists, just small scale restaurants, up to three prospects and three customers together on a table together with of course, someone have a point of poor and no formal presentation, you can give some more informal presentation about the whole map. And that always works. And I also know it from my previous company from a consultant when you put prospects together with customers, it always works. Of course, you have to take happy customers, but otherwise it will not come and you invite them to stick them. So if you if your candidate we can we can have next. Can you on the next stage? Denisha

Mike: Oh, I love that. That's, that's great. I really appreciate you giving us your time. Stephen, there's just a couple of questions, we'd like to ask everybody at the end of the podcast. And the first one is what's the best bit of marketing advice you've ever been given?

Stefan: Probably need to double down on what works instead of trying to experiment with new things all the time. And that doesn't mean that you don't have to do experimentation, I think we also do it. But yeah, don't fall into the shiny new object syndrome. And most of the effort should go to double down on what works I think I

Mike: thought you were gonna say that it's more nice restaurants. But so that's great advice. I love that double down on what works. I remember the last question is, if you're talking to a young person that was thinking about a career in marketing, what would your advice be,

Stefan: probably get some knowledge about technology, and even programming. But programming also, I mean, also didn't didn't know, quote, tools to design your own application, before getting into marketing and to create something yourself, maybe solving a personal problem or something else, and then go into marketing that will give you an additional advantage, I think so gets a little bit familiar with technology first. And then you go into marketing doesn't of course mean that the basic principles of marketing, like with digital marketing, the basic principles of like knowing your customer, and also this move towards content marketing and try instead of trying to sell your product. Those principles are still very important. But I would Yeah, if you have the chance to get familiar with technology before, I would recommend.

Mike: That is great advice. And I'm also previously was an engineer, so anything to do with technology is a good thing. Stefan, I really appreciate it's been fascinating. We're really excited at Napier. We're fairly early on in our journey with PointerPro and trying out some projects but you know, things that great if anyone listening to the podcast would like to try point Pro or find out more would be the best place to go. Yeah,

Stefan: for PointerPro is the website, point upload.com. You can, of course, try it out. You can get a demo. You can also find information about modern underlying principles about how to automate your consulting. We have blog, articles, testimonials, and so on, that you can explore. And when you want to find out about me or get in touch, then you can also use LinkedIn and just find it through my name Stefan Debois. I will be happy to get in touch with listeners to help or to exchange experiences.

Mike: Stephen, I really appreciate it's been a fascinating conversation. Thank you very much.

Stefan: Thank you for having me, Mike.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes, or on your favourite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at Napier B2B dot com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

by Natasha Websdale

A Napier Podcast Interview with Emir Zecovic - CMO

Emir Zecovic, an experienced marketing professional in the B2B and SaaS space, joins Mike for a discussion about how to market B2B technology products.

Emir highlights how marketers often miss opportunities by not focussing on large non-English speaking markets like South America and India. He shares why marketers should be data-obsessed to understand what influences the buying journey, and why working within start-ups may offer new marketers greater career opportunities.

• ‎Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
• Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
• Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com

About TextGrid, 12min and OpenGraph

TextGrid offers communication APIs for SMS, MMS, voice and email. With cloud communications, businesses are empowered to build, scale and innovate.

12min is a platform that chooses, reads and summarises the most important non-fiction books.

OpenGraph generates meta tags and social media previews for any URL on the web in a few simple steps.

About Emir

Emir Zecovic is CMO at 12min and is currently also in transition between roles as CMO at TextGrid and Senior Business Development Consultant at OpenGraph. He is a determined, data-driven and versatile marketer with over 7 years of experience in managing teams, devising and implementing growth strategies for SaaS B2B and B2C companies.

Time Stamps

[00:51.1] – Emir shares how he got to this point in his career.

[04:46.8] – Emir discusses why it is important not to overlook non-English speaking markets.

[08:49.7] – Emir shares his approach to marketing as a CMO.

[16:27.0] – How does Emir encourage form fills?

[20:26.8] – What impact is AI going to have on the industry.

[23:58.1] – Emir offers some career advice to new marketeers.

[26:42.9] – Emir’s contact details.

Quotes

“Trying to be as international as possible in a business is always a good idea, don't underestimate countries you're not familiar with.” Mike Maynard, Managing Director at Napier.

“I've heard people say that they don't like Google Ads or Facebook ads or SEO, but I doubt anybody has ever said that they regret having a good email list” Emir Zecovic, CMO at 12min.

Follow Emir:

Emir Zecovic on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emir-zecovic-074882166/

TextGrid Website: https://textgrid.com/

TextGird LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/textgrid/

OpenGraph Website: https://www.opengraph.xyz/

Follow Mike:

Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/

Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/

Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.

Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Transcript: Interview with Emir Zecovic - TextGrid/OpenGraph

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Emir Zecovic

Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today. Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today I'm joined by Emir Zecovic. Emir is currently in transition as we record so he has been working at text grid. But now he is moving across to a new position at OpenGraph. So we're going to have an interesting conversation with him about how to market B2B technology products. Welcome to the podcast, Emir.

Emir: Thank you. Glad to be here.

Mike: Great to have you on. So I mean, obviously your career is in a bit of transition. But can you just tell us you know how you got to this point now in your career?

Emir: Yeah, it's actually an interesting start. So probably you saw on Lincoln, I was born in sculpin. Nord must Estonia. Honestly, nothing about the background was nothing hinted that I will be interested in marketing, just how it happened. I started studying and got interested about when I was 20. And I started doing freelance work and got very interesting. And somehow I don't even know how I got involved with 12 Min, which I'm also there as the CMO. The tolzman actually was founded by Devo Gomez, who is currently the founder of rock content, the biggest B2B SaaS company in all Latin America, somehow promoted to the chief marketing role after two or three years, three years if I'm not wrong, and it just took from there. Meanwhile, I did four, I actually got my master's degree from University of Sheffield. Actually, it didn't travel to the UK for that, because they have international faculty presence in almost, if I'm not wrong, in Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia and Romania. But maybe I'm wrong for some of the countries. And I don't want to dwell too much on that. Because at the end of the day, it's more like practice. I don't think that the formal education has a huge role or anything of the kind. But it was a great experience. Actually, I learned a lot while it shuffled specifically. And right now I'm here. I don't know. It's kind of interesting. I was like to work at to play someone. I love, b2c, and B2B. So that's why I currently have kind of like two roles. It's fun. I don't know, I don't know why else would they did. Definitely fun.

Mike: That's awesome. I mean, you mentioned 12 Min. So let's just, you know, look at that for a minute. I understand that that's a bit like Blinkist, which might be a more well known brand name to our listeners, because I think our listeners are generally North America and Europe. But tell tell me a little bit about 12 Min.

Emir: Yeah, actually, we are direct competitors. So blinkers we kind of started at the same time, if from what I know, Linkous currently is more focused on US and Germany, while we are more focused on South America and Central America, are also expanding, we have us burners, which is great. It actually was founded in 2017, early, like I said, by Guillermo Gomez, who is also the founder of rock content, a huge company very successful one. And it it kind of, I believe, he was looking for ways to read a lot of books, which sounds a bit cliche, but that's exactly how he got the idea. And at that time, he couldn't find anything in Portuguese, or or in Spanish. So he thought, okay, maybe this will be a good idea. I don't know if at that time blinkers was already established, I think yes, if I'm not mistaken. But Pokemon started primarily for the Brazilian market and then moved Spanish and got to English. And now even the our English bases expanding. And we're also looking there to go into B2B, which is also very possible. And it requires a different set of strategy altogether. It's very different than just selling high ticket software, compared to 1000s. of subscriptions. And I don't know if you know, the but the average subscription price on the stores is $40. So I'm you cannot go super high. Like I would say the top markup that you can sell in in countries like Singapore, or the US, which are, let's say, more prosperous. It's 70 to $80 Max, and you have to be very careful what you're doing developing countries and so on. It really depends on the market.

Mike: That's fascinating. And I think, you know, it highlights something that perhaps people like myself who come from an English speaking country, sometimes we're not so aware of what's going on in other countries, particularly if it's not an English language product. And certainly South America is a gigantic market. And I think all too often overlooked.

Emir: Oh yeah, absolutely. And I'll just give you an insight. Do you know the average cost per click mean the difference is 10 to one compared to the US and sometimes even 15 to 108 If you compare, in Great Britain, it's in my opinion, it's even more expensive than the US for some industry. So you can compare that. If you have a conversion rate, that's two times less than what you have in first world countries, so anything from Germany to the UK or US, you can make a tonne of money and the profits, the profit margin is much greater actually, even though it sounds counterintuitive, but the sheer competition in in the US, for example, is crazy. You get high conversion rates, but you also get good lifetime value, whether you're going into B2B or b2c, but the acquisition costs for both of them are super high. Like I remember when we were running ads for things where it's for classic comparison based landing pages with highest, okay, someone might disagree, but they're one of the best converting landing page models out there. Without a doubt, at least in my experience, the average cost per click was $20. If you do the same thing in Brazil, is between 0.5 and $1. In the conversion rates, the conversion rates are somewhat similar with the US having two to one advantage. Now, of course, your order value, if you're running an E commerce shop, or you're providing service of any kind, is going to be lower, you cannot charge the same rates. But just the verified is 20 times cheaper to advertise, it already gives you a huge advantage. So you can you can adjust the price to fit the market, of course, but the advertising costs allow you room to lower your service fees, or I don't know, whatever you're selling, give ecommerce or even a software. So it's a it's an advantage, especially Brazil with with one with 200 million people.

Mike: That's a great point. I mean, I love that I think trying to be as international as possible in a business is always a good idea. And don't underestimate countries, maybe you're not familiar with.

Emir: Absolute in India is also a situation where I think everybody who misses out on India especially or Bangladesh, is missing out on a lot good conversion rates, very low cost per 1000 impressions for both Facebook and Google ads or anything else, for that matter. Yeah.

Mike: And that's a great point, too. I think, you know, there are other markets that perhaps people tend to underestimate. I'd like to move on to where you're going to see, you're moving to Open Graph, I'm not sure that, you know, all our listeners will be familiar with that company. So can you just briefly describe what the company does?

Emir: Yeah, I don't know if they're familiar with the Open Graph, man attacks, which were built in the early 2000s, and tense while I was still in high school, but it allowed that preview function of sharing information, like for example, if you wanted to share an article on Facebook, or Twitter or YouTube, it gave that metadata, you just extracted the metadata from a website or from a link. And it just made things a lot easier. So you can scrape the web, you can do all sorts of things in a much more efficient way, then I don't know then if you try any alternative use, but if they Google, for example, what's an Open Graph meta tag, they will understand just by the preview of how it would look if you remove the metal tags of a link or if a website, so OpenGraph does that.

Mike: That makes sense. And I think, you know, we probably don't need to dig too deep into exactly what the company does. What I'm really interested in as you as a marketing executive going in and looking to drive the marketing strategy, when you started a company or when he even you look at a new year. I mean, how do you approach building a marketing plan as a CMO?

Emir: I think the first thing that, for example, I never heard anyone say especially not in Marketing School, and not even at shovel that you have to be data obsessed, and other main data drives kind of like cliche, I mean, literally obsessed with, we always use this analogy. It's like being lost in the Amazon forest. And unless you're nowhere you're going, you better not move anywhere, you better stay where you are. So the price you might pay if you don't know where exactly you're going is higher than if you just stay where you are. So the first thing that I always do is I obsessively analyse the data. And by that I don't mean just the marketing. I mean, the business data. So you have how many touchpoints to conversions. What's the average lifecycle? Well, how many months days weeks does it take for a product qualified lead to get to a sales qualified position from a sales qualified to actually become a client? And I'm trying to find patterns? Where exactly what where's the elephant in the room? So for example, if you were to Google Open Graph, you would notice that in this you're gonna find his data but I'm saying the traffic like most most of the traffic is run through ads. So you have definitely a problem in the top of the funnel, it's very clear. So you have huge opportunity there. Next, you can move on. And there you think about how the the lifecycle goes, What's the conversion rate on the page, what actually, if someone converts from what was the previous page from where they converted, to become, let's say, subscriber to the newsletter or anything else, for example, we we have a sort of a freemium model, which is you have a free service, but we try to convert you slowly nurture you, and then push you into the one of the two paid plans. But it's not always the case. For some businesses, the main priority is a call immediately, you need a call, ASAP. So I would say, my way of doing things is always, at least in the first week or two, if more is needed, that's fine. Just obsess over the data and tried to find issues. And I mean, all sorts of issues from the top of the funnel all the way to the bottom, what channels are being used, was the performance. And especially if there are data problems, whether that's the the forces of data, where's the data stored, or there's, like, I don't know, if you notice, but the most common problem, for example, is in which is kind of so the little bit is tracking, where we will always find the same problem, the tracking is wrong, you would think everybody would be focused on tracking, make sure that the solid, no errors, but it's not the case. And if you have tracking problems, my advice, put the 110% into, into fixing it as soon as possible. So that's, that's how and then from that point onwards, I usually would go with my round and square the huge Board have everything that they found, and I started crafting my plan. Based on the resources, of course, sometimes you just cannot do what you want to do. Because there's there are limited resources, so you have to take that into account. But I would attack first the low hanging fruits. And I can give you an example, in SEO, you go away, and you have, let's say 510 15 keywords that rank from position 10 to 20. Those are low hanging fruits, you go there, you improve the content. And those things rank in two, three months. So my strategy first and foremost, is to attack the low hanging fruit. While we are working on the, let's say, not long term, but like midterm strategy, which I would say it's between three to six months. And the that's usually how I divided zero to three months, three to six months and long term six plus. And but first you target the looking for so that you get the most possible in the shortest time possible.

Mike: I love that, you know, going for quick wins, I think is always a good strategy. And it kind of clears away some of the things you could do and actually focus on perhaps some of the more difficult tasks. I'm interested when you're you're building a plan, do you look to use his broader mix of tactics as possible? Or do you feel that there are some primary tactics that really worked well for you? And that those are kind of your go to things?

Emir: Yeah, that's a amazing question. I love that. I've been debating that with people in the industry for so long. I remember I was reading an article maybe two or three months ago that said, and correct me if I'm wrong, it is. But I think that the email has 29 to one return on investment compared to paid advertising. I'm trying to say that, if there's anything that has proven to never fail, is that you need to build your email list. Now, I'm not saying that's the only way or the only focus. But if there is, any channel that you can never fail, if you do it right is definitely the email. I mean, we always look for shiny object syndrome. So let's say what AI can do, or what that can do, or this can do. Email never fails, the average person opens their email at least 10 times a day. It's a channel that they prefer. It's a preferred method of communication, especially in in B2B, I will always use a broad approach. So I would I would split them between inbound marketing and outbound see where we can go with cold. But the problem with cold outreach is that at some point, it eventually just hits a wall cannot scale more. You can always expand the persona or build a new one, you have different products. Some companies don't have that. Now if you're an electrician and other know if you do something other on the side. Yeah, maybe you can expand and then instead of targeting just one group, you go after another but if you're running just one product line or division, you certainly will hit a wall at some point. And then the question is what now? But if you have an email list, I don't I've never I've heard people say that that they don't like Google ads or Facebook ads or SEO. But if nobody has ever said that they regret having a good email list. There has never been such a As in history, so there's a reason for that is a reciprocal relationship because you're giving something for free in exchange of the user did. They don't feel like you're selling something to them? You're nurturing them. So it's reciprocal. We're not asking for something while giving nothing in return, so as long as you provide something of value, of course, they're going to reciprocate. And that's something that they found it works crazy. Well, to be honest, the only I've never said that's the only strategy far from it. But I'm saying, if you're building your email list, by very definition, you also need to work on paid ads, conversion funnels, data, front, and of course, you need to optimise the landing page copywriting, it just carries with it. Five, six different, completely different areas. In lead gen demand gen, all of that. You just create so much work. But if you nail it, I didn't doubting that anyone has ever said that they regret building their email list.

Mike: Yeah, I mean, I think that's great advice. Obviously, the challenge is really building that that list and getting the tactics right to encourage people to sign up. So I'm interested in how you do that, how you actually encourage people to fill in that form or to hand their details over so you can actually add them to the list. Do you have approaches for that?

Emir: Oh yeah, absolutely. Till 2020. Most of the companies, both in b2c and B2B use to one step approach. So what you do is send them to a page, you try to create as much value as possible to Beijing in exchange for their information. This is public knowledge, but I'm going to share something with you, we have something called the bread crumbs approach, which is 20 steps, our average landing page to lead currently is 35%. The average industry is like four or 5%. Of course, it requires testing, I'm not saying everybody should have 20 days, but a good test would be like this. So let's say you have four elements on the forum. So you have name, email, phone number, and I don't know maybe something else, but let's say company, email, or whatever, it's whatever is mandatory. But if you flip that with four steps, which means four separate steps, not all in one form, and the US first for the less intrusive ones. So it could be like, what's your name? Or where do you work with or what's your age, whatever, it's an issue. So as long as a person commits more, it will psychologically make them commit. Further, as you demand more personal things. So let's say their phone number, or their email, or maybe some company information. So what we generally use, and what I would advise is that whatever is the most difficult thing to ask, leave it for less. So as long as they invest in the form, in our case was the Select plan. So if you want, for example, let's say if you have a if you're running a b2c, this is the same actually with B to B. But if your conversion model is most of the sales happened between zero and three days, for example. So you need them to convert past. So how do you do that? So that's how you do it, you make them select the plan endl? And the last step, will having them commit to 15 Steps beforehand. And they're much less likely to abandon it. If the investment is high, as the counterintuitive argument is, is something like why would anyone bother to go through so many steps? The crazy part is that they will rather do that, than just give you all the information into let's say, a single page form with everything was done. In I've tested this so many times, and there has never been one case where the single page four outperforms the breadcrumbs. So in B2B, you don't need 20 steps, because you don't, nobody requires that kind of personalization. But if you find a way to split them, if from one to five, six, leave what you need the most last and tested. And I I mean, I have the one that I don't want to over promise, but it works on us.

Mike: I'm not sure we'll all get 35% conversion rate, but if we could all move it up from the low single digits, I think everyone would be happy.

Emir: Absolutely. Absolutely. The key is to be better than yesterday. Not not for some random industry to average plus the b2c is kind of a bit deceiving, because you cannot measure the B2B and b2c investment in forms. In b2c. The last I saw the average ones like 10% in B2B is between three and five.

Mike: that's great advice. I mean, I think that's interesting. And bread crumbing is certainly something you know, people are not familiar with, they should look at. It's something that I know a number of guests have talked about on the podcast. Emir, I'm interested to look forward. Now. I mean, you've talked about what you're doing today. How do you see marketing changing over the next few years? I mean, is AI going to completely transform things? Or is it going to stay, you know, much like it is today?

Emir: Yeah, that's, if you look at now than the main AI tool. So I don't know if you're familiar with magics. A, it's a company out of Tel Aviv. I don't know I don't want to sound biassed, but in my opinion, they have the best marketing automation software for paid advertising. Maybe I'm biassed I've tried a couple of them. I really liked them. I think the company was founded in Israel, if I'm not wrong, or in Austria, I think it was in Israel. It's actually an amazing software. And right now they even created something called marketer AI is interesting, because you don't see a lot of AI tools actually doing the thinking for you. So usually what AI is focused on is cutting your time. So what does it mean? So let's say if you are running a CRM, or an email marketing software, or at Creative AI, powered software, so what they usually do is that they try to cut the manual work. What I'm trying to say is that what I see is that AI will certainly reduce the need for copywriters for marketing research, anything that was previously done manually, but it requires human input to a much greater degree. Magic has one of their tools is actually that they give you recommendations based on your ads performance. AI based so it says, Well, this was happening the last seven days, I recommend that you do X or Y or Z doesn't matter. So it tries to replace the thinking process. That's revolutionary. So it's not just some task that they're trying to replace, as far as marketers focus on data interpretation, that cannot be easily replaced by AI. But as long as their primary focus is a task, or very tight niche, so let's say link building outreach. Now, you can definitely improve that using AI. But if your focus is interpreting what happens, once you get those links, and how those links transform your rankings, that's not something AI can do. Or at least not not as well as someone who's experienced can do so my focus will be to simply focus on things that AI cannot replace, which is interpreting the results of your strategies. And moving slowly away from things that are repetitive, so including you and to an extent copywriting because if almost every software out there now has an AI assistant, so that you can churn out emails, and usually they're very well written. So it's not something that that you can compete, and plus it cuts the cost for employers, that that will be my worst. That's why they think that AI will definitely impact and I don't think they will impact marketing jobs a lot. Because marketing is still a very creative industry. So it still requires a lot of human potential.

Mike: I think that's that's great insight to the future. And certainly, you know, everyone, check out magic, can you just give the URL for that so the listeners can find it?

Emir: Madgicx.com.

Mike: Perfect. And I think people would want to check that out. So thank you for that. I mean, it's been really interesting, this discussion, you seem very positive about the future of marketing. I mean, presumably, if somebody was young was thinking of entering the industry came to you, you'd be, you know, quite keen for them to become a marketer. So I'm interested in what would be your advice as to how to successfully start a marketing career.

Emir: Probably the best advice that I can give them is that too, especially at the outset to avoid working for big companies. And I know it sounds counterintuitive, but you will usually be just a hog in like hogging the machine. And you won't get enough exposure to real problems. So if you're starting out and all you're given is a task and you're not allowed to question the system, which something that happens super often, you will never get enough exposure to problems to grow as a marketeer. And it creates a problem because AI will replace most of the repetitive things. So I'm not saying that, of course every business is different than it STEM is different. How it operates is pretty much unique. My advice would be to find someone that is willing to throw them in the fire. And at least for the first couple of years to work for either a startup and I know it's not very popular because startups can get really demanding and sometimes They don't have that same kind of work life balance. But starting out, I would definitely give that advice. Because everybody who has worked for a big company, what they usually receive is a set of tasks they perform, not getting exposed to real problems. So you can learn and grow. And even if you want to get exposed, you're not allowed to because the system is already created, you cannot challenge it without creating a mess on for other different areas. So that will be my advice to girls. And the second one is to read a lot, especially understand data. It may sound crazy, but what I would advise them to do is that they take any channels, whether that's SEO, Google ads, LinkedIn doesn't matter. And try to understand the KPIs read all of them, and understand how it impacts further down the funnel. So if you have for example, let's say you haven't a lot of new visitors, but at the same time your bounce rates goes up. So what does it mean? It means probably are getting a lot of referral traffic. And that interpretation of the data is a I remember what I was reading one book about the CHS old intelligence in the world means nothing unless you have someone to act on it. You can have all the data, all the intelligence, if you don't know what it means you cannot act on it. So it's meaningless. Pretty much data doesn't do anything by itself.

Mike: I love it. That's brilliant advice. I mean, Emir, this has been fascinating. You've been very generous with your insight and your advice for people. I mean, if anyone's listening and they'd like to get in touch, what would be the best way to reach you?

Emir: Probably with LinkedIn. I mean, that will be one way and a via email. Zitzewitz Emir 199 four@gmail.com, which is my personal email. Awesome.

Mike: That's very generous. Emir, this has been fascinating. I really appreciate your time. Thank you for being a guest on the podcast.

Emir: It was a pleasure. And thank you a lot for the opportunity actually to be here.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes, or on your favourite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at Napier B2B dot com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

by Natasha Websdale

A Napier Podcast Interview with Sean Campbell - Cascade Insights

Sean Campbell, CEO and Founder of Cascade Insights, is the latest guest to join Mike Maynard for the Marketing B2B Technology podcast. Sean discusses the benefits of using market research platforms, explores the pros and cons of qualitative versus quantitative data, and talks about the challenges of getting research responses within the B2B industry.

• ‎Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
• Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
• Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com

About Cascade Insights

Cascade Insights empowers B2B technology companies with customized market research and marketing services. For over a decade, we’ve served Fortune 500 enterprises like Microsoft, Adobe, IBM, Dell Technologies, AWS, and Google as well as mid-markets and startups.

In an industry that’s ever-changing, we deliver the tools and resources to help businesses navigate the market and seize opportunities for growth. Want to learn how well your brand resonates with buyers, or why your superior product keeps losing to a competitor? Maybe you need updated messaging to win more deals and generate more leads.

About Sean

Sean has been training, mentoring, and educating all his life. An exceptionally well-regarded conference speaker and author, Sean has delivered talks for Fortune 50 companies and top-tier conferences. He has also been the author of several books on technical and business topics.

Sean has also been a professional services firm owner for over 20 years. He is passionate about running a remote-first company, and has been doing so long before it was cool – dating back to the 20th century!

His professional services work has spanned consulting engagements with the Fortune 50 and startups you have heard of; the sale of his first professional services company, and the growth of delivery, sales, marketing, and operational practices inside professional services firms.

 Time Stamps

[00:41.5] – Sean discusses his career and what lead him to market research.

[03:54.0] – Sean talks about Cascade Insights, what it is and its capabilities.

[06:09.8] – Sean discusses why he chose to focus on the B2B industry.

[16.10.4] – What are the benefits of using a market research platform vs in-house research?

[19:39.7] – Sean shares how he thinks market research is going to change in the future.

[21.59.7] – What advice would you give to someone joining the profession?

[26:07.2] – Sean’s contact details.

Follow Sean:

Sean Campbell on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seancampbell/

Cascade Insights website: https://www.cascadeinsights.com/

Cascade Insights on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/cascade-insights/

Follow Mike:

Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/

Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/

Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.

Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Transcript: Interview with Sean Campbell - Cascade Insights

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Sean Campbell

Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today. Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today I'm joined by Sean Campbell. Sean is the CEO and founder of Cascade Insights. Welcome to the podcast, Sean.

Sean: Thanks for having me.

Mike: It's great to have you on. I mean, what we'd like to do first off is just find a little bit about people's background. So keep telling me a little bit about your career and how you ended up founding cascading sites.

Sean: Well, first thing is I didn't, I didn't want a business. I always thought the kids who went to business school classes at 8am for accounting were just boring. I don't know why they would go do that. I was a liberal arts grad. My classes started at six at night. But no, I was actually going to go be a college professor. Then I met a girl that I was worried about being broke. She wasn't God bless her. But like I said, Well, maybe I should go do some other form of teaching. At the time, I wasn't sure if that was a temporary diversion or not. But I ended up teaching Windows for Workgroups in Microsoft Word when a mouse was a new thing when people would use it as a foot pedal. That's a true story. By the way that actually happened in my classroom, somebody put it on the ground and tried to use it as a foot pedal, like it was a sewing machine or something. So I ended up becoming a technical trainer, teaching networking, databases, programming, and then I decided to go become an independent trainer, started a first company with two other guys, that company grew and eventually got sold. Then I started cascade with one of those two guys, he has now moved on to other things cascade solely owned by me. And I've owned cascade for 17 years now, first company out for about seven. So I'm on your 24 of self employment, basically, at this point.

Mike: Not a bad record for somebody who never wanted to do it.

Sean: Well, the funny thing is, I look back, right. And I still love teaching, like all my hobbies are teaching. I'm basically incapable of learning something and not wanting to teach it. Like I've just like, if I find a new thing, I want to go turn around and teach it. And there's a lot of learning if you have the right orientation to a business, like I know. And I know people get into it for different reasons. It's why I struggle with somebody's like, so what are your growth plans? And I'm like, learning. And that's worked for me. I mean, you know, our first business, we got up to like, 25 people, this business, I've got 15 people, so it's not just like me learning. It's like, I feel like I built an organisation that learns and then go figure. What do I end up doing? The first company did what we used to call technology evangelism work back in the day from Guy Kawasaki, but nobody calls it that anymore. And then this company was a market research firm, which is, oddly enough, something professors do, too. So I have this kind of weird circular thing, I think is kind of happened career wise. And at the same time I, I've had the opportunity to be an adjunct in an MBA programme. I still like teaching and volunteering. And so it's it to me, it makes a lot of sense. And obviously, I should say this, I mean, so nobody thinks it's Pollyanna have I had to learn things like what's p&l? Have I had to learn accounting? Have I learned to learn business and operational processes? Have I learned all the vagaries of HR policies by state in the United States? Yes, I've either hired someone to do that. And or I've had to learn that myself. And if I read contracts long enough to put the most caffeinated person to sleep, yes, I've done that, too. But like, there's plenty of running a business that I had to learn. But no, I didn't even really think I was going to do it. At the start. No, I love it. I love everything about it, mostly. But if I said I loved everything about it, you shouldn't believe me. But mostly, I love everything about it.

Mike: That's great to hear. It's worked out. Well. So you mentioned cascade, is the market research firm? Can you just unpack that and tell us a little bit more about what you do and who you work with?

Sean: Yeah, I say we get hired for pain or opportunity. So we either get hired because a competitor has done a better job selling or marketing or building products. Or you've done a poor job selling and a poor job marketing, and a poor job building product, or we get hired for opportunity. So somebody who wants to move into a new market, they've got a brand new products, that doesn't really have a market yet, or there's like, you know, industries they want to move into. And you go one layer below that. We do a lot of qualitative and quantitative research to answer the questions that fall out of those pain and opportunity buckets. Because clients will sit around a table or virtually or otherwise in their office and say, We really need some market insight to make this decision effectively. And so they'll come to us. And I think of us is like great recommenders right. We're certainly really good plumbers we understand how to conduct research really well. But fundamentally we get hired because we produce great recommendations. And the reason we do that to kind of bring the circle all the way Around, is we only work with B2B technology companies. So if you're a business to business oriented company, and you have a technology based solution, and the reason there's a little asterisk there is like, you know, we wouldn't work with Merck, talking to surgeons about cancer drugs, but we might talk to Merck, about a life sciences oriented solution that is SAS based to manage clinical trials, right. So like, there has to be like a strong technical underpinning which in this era of cascade, you know, your 17 predominantly means cloud based solution. So if you're a cloud based solution, kind of regardless of the vertical you're in, that's a great choice for us. On the other hand, if you were like, selling H back solutions to high rises, which we get a lead like that, every once in a while, they'll say, Well, we're technology. And I'm like, Yeah, but not the technology we work with. You know, you're absolutely technology, and you're absolutely B2B, but it's not what we would work with.

Mike: And that's interesting, you've got such a clear focus of what you do, because, I mean, there's this view that B2C, you know, consumer does a lot more market research than B2B. So why did you pick B2B?

Sean: It's more interesting. I mean, that's part of it. I mean, for sure, part of it's, it's more interesting, it's chewier. Now, I know there's a B2C researcher out there, that's like, but there's so much into like, whether they pick the rose coloured phone or the gold phone? And I'm like, Yeah, but it also feels kind of manipulative. So like, I wouldn't really get excited about that. And I'm not trying to be dismissive of the army of people to do consumer packaged research and like, what colour the Clorox box should be, I mean, I understand it's valuable. But it's just different. I also feel like it ends up being a lot more focused, you know, our audiences are very narrow and B2B that we go after, right? We don't serve a, you know, the swath of millennials, right? You know, it's very rare for us to do a study that would be based on like demographic characteristics, it's a lot more like, what are you using? What is your day, like, you know, what is your title? Like? What are the business problems you're trying to solve? That's how we target people. So I just find there's kind of a richness to it. And I think the other thing is, and this is honestly part of the entrepreneurial journey, so try to make this really short. But it's, it's fundamental to what happened to me, our first client in the first business was Microsoft, in 1999. And if somebody listening thinks of market dominance in tech, you don't really understand what it was like, except if you worked with Microsoft. And when they own 97% of computing, that doesn't exist. Now. There's not 97% of iPhones, AWS doesn't have 97% of cloud compute, you know, there's nobody, there's 97% of laptop sales, Microsoft and Intel, were something that's just probably never going to be seen again, unless, like, open AI does it to us, right? You know, or something like that, where you got like, 97%, of something happening in one building. And I say only that for this one reason. We ended up working with their developer division at that time, a lot. And they were very business to business focus. And so I ended up getting I didn't know it at the time, I didn't even think about it that way. At the time, I got this incredible education, on what it meant to do business to business marketing and business to business product development, just because we lucked out is our first account as these guys. Right. And it's it's almost like a version of graduate school for me that I didn't really think about it the time, but that's what was happening. And again, that analogy would hold true even for B2C. I mean, I know those people who like, you know, hung around a big CPG company, and they're like, as a vendor, they just ended up being educated in the world of that, and God bless them. That's great. But for me, I just got drawn into it. And before I knew it, that was the space that I really felt like I could provide a lot of value. And there's some fringe benefits. I'd say, too. I mean, I think the research is, well, I don't want to say it's monetized better, because that's not really maybe the best way to put it. It's not even really what I think it's just really chewy and rich. And that creates one problem, I'd say it's a huge one maybe that falls under the like when I send it like the job mostly is it can be very challenging for us to get feasibility on a study. I mean, one of our perennial problems is cmo wanders up to us of technology company and says, I want an n of 1000 survey. And we go nope. And they go, why not? And then there's this like math problem, we have to explain to them and they're like, I don't understand. And you're like, it's hard to get B2B research respondents. It's really hard. And it's probably the biggest day to day challenge we face in our business at least. So

Mike: I'm going to ask you that because obviously, I think most B2B marketers have tried research at some point or another. And most of them have come across this, you know, situation where they go, we want you know, even if it's a couple of 100 responses, that's really tough and B2B. So how do you go about trying to get higher responses from B2B surveys? Or do you do market research a different way for B2B? Well,

Sean: Well, so that's interesting. So a couple of things in that one underlying that question, you're getting at something that I want to pull out which is that me Many marketers in B2B have to recognise that they might not get a quant study, they might end up with a call study. Just because of the math, right? Even things like a brand study that you would really traditionally want as quant, you might just not have enough people at the top of the funnel. Another classic example of that is competitive studies. You know, somebody says, I would really like a quantitative survey of XYZ competitor customers, and it's like, okay, we'll just do the math, right? I mean, if you want an end of 200, and your response rates are in the low single digits, you need a lot of people at the top of the funnel, and somebody has to have that whole list of competitor customers, that's going to be hard to find. And if you try to organically sourced that list, well, now that's nowhere near the cost that you thought that study would be right, which is a lot of times why the CPI, you know, the cost per respondent can be like, really, really high. And that creates some challenges for client. Basically, I'll give you a short version of how we find people, we could dig into it more if you want, because it's it's definitely an area we could do a whole show on. But like, the short version is don't use a panel, use an expert network, or somebody that is preferably which expert networks do but they don't do always sourcing participants organically, like they're actually going out and looking at LinkedIn and their or some other tool. And they're trying to find people who have exactly the right profile. And then they screen those individuals. Because the problem with the panels are there may be all right for B2C. But they tend to break down very quickly for B2B for one simple reason that I can give you a short analogy on that is absolutely true, and is the heart of the problem. We even have a short video on the website that somebody on the team here did wants that we call B2B Brian, that's kind of a cute way of putting it together. But like so B2B, Brian is 53. And he likes baseball and pasta equally. And at 54. He likes baseball a little more and pasta a little less, you can track that somewhat in a panel of a bazillion consumers and send out surveys. The challenge is the timeliness of it breaks down with business because you are in a study this year, because you work for big Corp, Microsoft, and you are an HR benefits leader. And in a week from now you're going to quit and go be an HR benefits leader in a startup, you're not even in the same study anymore, you're solving completely different problems. And the reality is we do have a database, it's live and out there all the time. It's called LinkedIn the tracks that for us, but that's not the same thing as having a proprietary database. And then you have the the one factor that the barbarians are at the gate, meaning you know, if you can get 50 bucks or 75 bucks as a research participant to fill out a 15 minute survey, you will try desperately to fake and be whoever that person is, there's just a massive amount of challenges there. And whereas in B2C, they get paid a lot less. So there's kind of this like Cold War always going on with like professional survey takers. And you solve a lot of that by recruiting organically because you're going to someone who is most likely to they are they have the background, all that stuff anyway. So wait a little longer on that than I intended. But that's that's basically it. And we just have to constantly be staring at the vendors we work with for recruit and figure out you know, you're good with this audience. You're good with that audience, you're great with this audience. And that's how it plays out. But the short answer is just for the love of God, don't use panel, because you will end up with a survey that you may not even know you shouldn't trust, but you shouldn't trust.

Mike: I think that's that's really interesting advice. I'm gonna have to ask, What about focus groups in B2B? Do they work? Or are they hard to be effective?

Sean: They work? I think they work honestly. Great. We try to steer clients slightly away from them. Because like, I really tried to ask why are you asking for a focus group is it preference that you come from B to C, here because there's some dynamics, maybe this is what you're alluding to, in B2B focus groups that you have to kind of watch for right and things that are harder to create dynamic wise, because people might be a little more reluctant to share, especially on certain topics, because they don't really know who else is in the focus group, it can be a little harder to just collect the focus group participants at the same date and time. And it's also one of the reasons that, at least in our experience, we have a lot more success with virtual focus groups in B2B, that if we tried to do it in person, the only exception to that is like when we run them at a conference. Like for example, we've run focus groups for AWS at reinvent, but there's 10s of 1000s of people already there for you to grab. So that's not a really fair test that you know, in person focus groups work all the time. It's just the nature of a conference draws them in in a different way. But yeah, we don't really have a huge issue running them in short, I think you just have to factor in a little different dynamic that plays out and the places we would use them. Message testings a call Number one, that's probably the most common. I would say it's sometimes shows up in crossover studies, maybe like an ICP study, you know, and I'd say one of the thing about it one thing, just and this is probably more personal preference, I tend to steer people away from them a little bit, because I don't know if it's necessarily the best bang for your buck, because I think people over index on the popcorn thing that will happen in the focus group, which all happens in like 90 minutes. And they don't think about, well, if I turned all that cost of running a focus group, and I did X number of interviews that I could listen to, I could read the transcript, I get a much more longitudinal feel. And I can tune the study as it goes along in a different way, for roughly the same amount that you might have run a single focus group. But that's maybe more personal preference than anything else. I'd

Mike: I'd sounds like good advice, though. I mean, it sounds like a very sensible approach. I mean, one of the things a lot of companies do is they try and do I mean, what they see as being very informal market research, but try and do something in house, maybe ask the sales team to go talk to a couple of customers. I mean, what do you see as the issues behind companies running market research in house?

Sean: Well, first thing is, I think it's great. I think if you have a mindset that you want to learn about your market, whether you hire a firm or not, I will just say you're probably ahead of half the people you're competing with, right at that moment of you making that decision, whether you hire a research firm or not to do it. The second thing is it has a lot to do with how you staff, the team that's going to do that research. Have you given them actual time to do it? Do you as a leader understand some of the dynamics we've already discussed? You know, if you go say, go run a survey with our current customers, do you understand response rates? Do you understand that you can't just like say, Oh, they're our valued customers, I'm sure they'll respond to our survey, you have to understand some dynamics that are just like, everyday realities for somebody that runs a research firm. And some companies are good at that, you know, and I think that's great. As far as the specific example of talking to customers, or talking to the sales team, I'd split the two a little bit, I think it's great to talk to you to our customers, I don't think you necessarily need a research firm as an agnostic intermediary. I don't think you'd need it, I think that it can be very helpful because the discussion guide and some of the things that you're going to develop might be canted to meet the needs of a particular stakeholder group and might not necessarily be as balanced as it could be. And that's definitely a rule that we take on. And I would say from the, you know, salesperson standpoint, I actually love it. When we talk to sales books, I say that they are running a never ending qualitative research project. And they need to be interacted with as such. Now on the other hand, they can sometimes be a poor research participant, because they might generalise a lot from a specific or the last deal they closed. But you contrast that with they're sending messaging downrange all day long in a complex B2B sale. And they are understanding where where it comes from, and where it lands a perfect example of that. And I should emphasise this a complex sale, I'm not talking about somebody like selling selling e signature solutions and waiting for the next lead to show up on their screen. And they're just reading a script. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the more complex side of B2B. But like there was a stakeholder meeting, we were in one time with a recognisable fortune 100 tech company and the sales guy pops off when one of the marketers said I think we should test digital transformation is a phrase and the long standing sales guy, probably comfortable poking everyone in the eye, because he probably kept selling a lot. Said, I think there should be a swear jar around here every single time somebody utters the phrase digital transformation, and they're forced to put $100 in it, because it just drives people batty when you say it in a sales conversation. And I was like, oh, yeah, you're here, right? I mean, and I like I said, I think there's this misplaced notion that sometimes talking to the sales team is invaluable. And I think done right? It's, it's a goldmine. It's an absolute goldmine. So I think we provide a lot of value. And I could get into that. But that's probably not the best use of a listeners time to hear a commercial where our value is, but I would inspire people to say, yeah, go learn back to what I said earlier. Like, if you're learning about your market and your competitors, you're way ahead of probably half the companies out there just by making that decision alone. That's

Mike: That's a really positive view of what people can do, Sean. So I really appreciate that. You know, one thing I'm interested in about market research is, obviously today it's quite a labour intensive activity. How do you see market research changing in the future? Do you see technology really affecting what you do? Yeah,

Sean: Yeah, I think in terms of the future market research, there's probably two things I would point to, although there's a tonne of things, one is synthetic respondents, which hold a lot of promise and certain amount of risks, but I'm excited about it. I think, you know, if you're a craftsman of any sort, you shouldn't be worried about new technology. Right, you know, the analogy I've used with a lot of the AI tools around here is that it's more like it's a supersuit, right, or it's like a nail gun versus a hammer, you know, houses were built with hammers for millennia. And then some guy came around with a compressed air tank and a big hefty nail gun, and somebody was dismissive of it. And somebody else said, I think my customer just wants a well built house, and they'd like it a little sooner. And now it's rare to go to any job site and not see guys like putting the house together with nail guns doesn't mean that it's a worse house. So synthetic respondents are a big one. There are some risks and rewards to that, like I said, but I think they're going to be a really interesting adjunct to the the more kind of human centred research that I think we're still going to continue to do. The other thing is AI tools for qualitative analysis, we've always had tools that can help go through quantitative results. But I think the place where it's more interesting is around analysis of qualitative survey, qualitative data where you have a tonne of transcripts and textual data that for all of the vendors who build solutions that would analyse that pilot tax, they weren't nearly as good as some of the tools I see that are AI based now. And that takes a lot of manual labour out of the equation that takes a lot of the time out of the equation, that leads to some consistency when it comes to coding and analysis. You know, back to what I said earlier, I ultimately, nobody's working with us, because they care what tools we use. As long as those tools are appropriate. They want to buy the house, they want to have great recommendations, they want to have a way to change their business. And if we can get to that quicker through some of these AI based tools, I think that's fantastic.

Mike: That's great. And that's a super optimistic view of the future, which I love. As we come to closer podcasts, it's always a couple of questions we'd like to ask, and the first one is around people thinking of entering marketing, or in your case, maybe market research. What advice would you give to someone thinking of entering the profession?

Sean: Well, if I was to give very specific advice to market research, I would say spend time looking at qualitative research. You know, I think it's a real common misstep and mistake to kind of look at market research as surveys. And I think schools sometimes do an injustice there, too. I think when I even taught in the MBA programme, it felt like every student assumed that what I did all day was right, and send out quantitative surveys. And they miss the richness and understanding that comes from qualitative. So I would say that's a big piece. And it also sometimes inhibits somebody who's looking at a market research as a career, right? Because if they see themselves as somewhat of a behind the scenes person, or someone who wants to look at the data, and analysing qualitative research puts you right in touch with the customer. And I think that's going to be ever more important. As we get more and more data from AI based solutions, right? That we have this kind of ability to talk to customers in their element human to human. I think that's like really, really going to be critical. I've even seen some organisations start to emphasise a lot more qualitative research, even technology organisations, because they see the same gaps starting to develop, you know, mountains of data, but not a lot of qualitative research being done. So that's being and a more meta level, I would say read stuff you disagree with. It's it's a general piece of advice. If somebody asked me like, what's the major piece of advice I'd give anybody, business or otherwise read stuff you disagree with? You don't have to agree with it when you're done. But if you really ask yourself, How much do I read that I disagree with? Do I watch the news channel that I don't like? Do I read the articles that I don't like? Do I read books from business authors that just based on the cover, I might not necessarily agree with? One of two things is going to happen. Either you're going to have your own views kind of positively reinforced by engaging with something that's different, or they're going to be changed somewhat. And that's good. So those are the two big things. That's

Mike: That's awesome advice, Sean, I think not just for people new to the industry or thinking about the industry, but also people who've been in the industry a while. So really appreciate that. Thank you so much for your time and all your insight, Sean, is there anything you'd like to sum up with or anything you feel we've missed?

Sean: I know, I think we hit a lot of things. I mean, I would just say, you know, my career has been blessed by just an emphasis on wanting to learn approach problems from that mindset. And I'll leave you with one personal example. Let's just say people are watching the US presidential election, this time around with a certain degree of interest, perhaps not just in the United States, much like they did on the last few elections. And I saw that I'm a citizen here in the States. And the last election happened and I said, you know, I want to learn more about US presidents. I want to learn more about the process around electing presidents and all that and I said, you know, one of the coolest things I think I could do is I'm going to go read a biography on every single US President. So alongside of us bunch of other reading over the last three years. I did that. And I just finished it up a couple months ago. And I can tell you I learned a tonne, I was at times surprised by how our own electoral processes changed. I was somewhat surprised also why things are the way they are. And that led to all kinds of interesting thoughts around, you know, what presidents were good, which presidents were bad, what made a good president? You know, what was the typical characteristics of a president? Well, I don't think everybody needs to do that to vote. I think having a lien to learning more about the process than just talking about it. I think he's the biggest piece of advice I could give anybody, both personally and professionally.

Mike: That's amazing, even if the thought of reading a biography of every American President seems just a little challenging at the moment.

Sean: Well, it was it was actually pretty fun. But I'm a history buff, so but not everybody has. Anyway, anyway.

Mike: Also, Sean, thank you so much. It's been such an interesting conversation. I mean, you've talked a lot about loading if people want to learn more, or maybe even get you to help them do their next market research project. How can they get in contact with you?

Sean:  Just check out cascade Insights.com. You know, thankfully, to the heart efforts of our marketing team, if you just type cascade Insights in Google, I think you're gonna find this pretty quick. So that's, that's the fastest way.

Mike: That's, that's amazing and nice and simple. Sean, thanks so much for being a guest on the podcast. I've really enjoyed our chat. Thanks

Sean: Thanks for being here, man. Take care.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to Marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes, or on your favourite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at Napier B2B dot com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

by Natasha Websdale

A Napier Podcast Interview with Rob May - BrandGuard

Staying within brand guidelines can be a challenge, and as the use of AI in marketing rises, this will become increasingly difficult. Rob May, founder of BrandGuard, explains how solving user challenges transformed his platform from what was initially an advertising platform into an entirely different product that uses AI to identify branding issues.

He shares his career journey, how the rise in generative AI drew him back into the start-up space, how different AI models work, and the impact he believes AI will have over the next five years.

Listen to the podcast now via the links below:

• ‎Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
• Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
• Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com

About BrandGuard

BrandGuard is an AI-powered brand governance platform that helps ensure brand consistency in customer facing assets, such as advertisements, generated by both humans and machines.

About Rob

Rob May is the founder and CEO of BrandGuard and is a leading figure in the field of generative AI and brand safety. With his extensive background in entrepreneurship and angel investing, Rob brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise to the table.

Time Stamps

[00:43.3] – Rob discusses His career journey and why he founded BrandGuard.

[01:47.5] – Rob goes into detail about BrandGuard, its beginnings and what it does.

[12:33.0] – Rob explains some off the issues with branding in AI content.

[16:10.0] – Who can use BrandGuard? Rob discusses what businesses can benefit.

[18:45.6] – Rob shares his thoughts on how AI is going to change marketing.

[22:59.8] – Rob’s contact details.

Follow Rob:

Rob May on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robmay/

BrandGuard website: https://www.brandguard.ai/

BrandGuard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/brandguard-ai/

Follow Mike:

Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/

Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/

Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.

Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Transcript: Interview with Rob May - BrandGuard

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Rob May

Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today. Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today, I've got Rob May, who's the founder and CEO of BrandGuard joining me. Welcome to the podcast. Rob.

Rob: Thanks for having me.

Mike: 

It's great to have you on. So, you know, you obviously founded BrandGuard. But let's start off by taking a little step back and finding out how you got to the point of, you know, wanting to found the company. So, can you tell me a little bit about your career journey?

Rob: Yeah, so I am a electrical engineer and a chip designer by training. So that's where I got my start. And I always knew I wanted to get into startups. So I, after a couple years of doing chip design, I joined a startup, then joined another startup, then started my first company back in 2009. And so that in 2014, the first one did really well, otherwise, I don't know that I'd still be doing it. So then I started a second company, the second company did not go well. Then I went into VC for a couple of years. And I saw this generative AI wave happening and decided I had to come back out of VC and do a little more operating. So started my third company, which actually spawned the technology that became BrandGuard. It wasn't the focus initially of the third company, but it led to the creation of Vanguard.

Mike: That's great. And obviously, all the great people started electronics engineers, I don't know if you know, I started my career as an electronics engineer as well during board level design.

Rob: Exactly. That's awesome.

Mike: Can you tell me a little bit about how you decided to apply AI? And what brand God does?

Rob: Yeah, well, we started with the idea that you could use generative AI to create hyper, personalised marketing and scale. So think about the idea that, you know, you're going to sell a pencil, you know, if you were going to sell them a nice mechanical pencil, you have a couple of personas, you're going to write ads for those personas. But what if you could speak to everybody differently, right, a 19 year old college student who's really into mechanical pencils in the Pacific Northwest, may want a very different image and freezing in their ads than a 75 year old, you know, writer who loves to use mechanical pencils for nostalgic reasons, who lives in, you know, southern Florida or whatever. And so, imagine if you could really use your vi as Chet GPT, here's 1000 different personas to buy my pencil write me a different ad for everyone. So that's kind of what we created. And it worked really well. But there were two problems. One problem was that it became obvious that the platforms were gonna do this in cells. So Google and Facebook, were going to build in this functionality. And the second problem was that we would show this to CMOS, and they would say, see, I'm not a brand person, I'm an enterprise software person.

So I didn't realise that, like, if you're a brand person, you obsess over minutiae about how things look and how things are phrased. And so you might say, if you sell bottled water, you might say, we'll say purified, but never filtered. Right? Or you may say, you know, you have a certain imagery of the model that you're using in an ad. And you may say, like, no, no, she can, she can have a wrist tattoo, but not an arm tattoo she could like, are people that were catering to look like this and not like this, and like, these minor things matter, you know, she, she would sit with her legs this way at the table, like all these, all these little things. And so what would happen is we would show our tool to these markers. And they would say, well, that's great, you're gonna create 5000 Hyper targeted ads for me, that's awesome. I have to review them all you've created work for me. So we took a step back, and we were like, well, could we teach machines to understand brands and branding? And it turns out, you can, it's a very hard problem, what we what we did was, we built a series of tools you can think about, it's not like a machine learning model. It's dozens of machine learning models. And we ingest brand guidelines, previous versions of, of content that a brand has produced. And then we built what we call a brand governance platform that takes these things, breaks them down into models, and in the models check, is the stuff you produced on brand is it meet the brand guidelines, you know, it started as a feature of this ad product, like we're going to create ads and the ads are on brand. And it just became the whole platform. We don't do any ad generation anymore. We just whether humans create the ads or machines create the ads, we just run them through our series of models. We provide scores and feedback and analysis and all that kind of stuff. So it's it's pretty cool technology.

Mike: So you're doing that checking of 5000 different ads that the person who's responsible for brand didn't want to do. Yeah,

Rob: or even we, you know, even even people that just are don't have an AI process and are just doing hundreds of ads per month. We frequently hear but so let's say you're using an agency and the agency designers are working on lots of different projects. They don't have your whole Till 10, or 40, or 80 Page brand guidelines memorised in their head all the time that they're working on, you know, they make mistakes. And we constantly hear that about a third to half the time people are looking at content saying like, no, this doesn't meet the brand guidelines, go back and do it again. And what they want is they want a tool that takes that first pass. So now the humans would say, don't send it to me for approval until it's past BrandGuard.

Mike: Okay, so you're actually doing that first pass before it appears with humans? I mean, one of the things that I think is interesting from this is, do you think this world where everybody gets a personalised email is actually going to happen? Or do you think enterprises they actually want to preserve their brand? They want some consistency on brand. And they actually don't want these hyper personalised emails being sent out?

Rob: Well, I think they're, I think they're trying to do both, right. So we'll, we'll see if it works. But the way you can think of it as like, they might use similar phrasing, like, obviously, you know, Nikes tagline is just do it. And they're not going to change that tagline for me and you or anybody else. But a lot of their imagery is like people running in the Pacific Northwest, where there's Nike, or in Colorado, where a lot of athletes train, but might they benefit from showing people running in, you know, the beach, or, you know, I'm in New York and downtown Manhattan, Central Park, you can see that having an impact without changing a lot of what Nikes trying to do. So So I think there's gonna be a lot of experimentation to get there, I think it will move the needle. But there's going to be a counterweight, right, which is, humans get tired of these things. I mean, every time something becomes a best practice, like, oh, man, these notifications, and these NPS scores, kill me. Because the more products you use, the more people have you that just want you to take a one minute survey. And it's like, I can't take 91 minute surveys in a day just because I interacted with that many products. So we got to find better ways to give and get feedback and interact with customers in ways that respect what they're doing. So it'd be interesting to see how these multiple forces evolve in this scenario.

Mike: Yeah, I mean, I think it was interesting. I've now got visions of everyone in the UK getting pictures of people running in the pouring rain from Nike. Yeah. I hopefully won't get to that. Anyway, going back to BrandGuard. So something you mentioned earlier that I found quite interesting was that you fed the AI system, you trained it on the brand guidelines, but also on past content. So presumably, one of the things you found is that there are explicit brand guidelines, things that, you know, are written down are very clear. But there's also kind of tacit brand guidelines that are kind of held within the heads of people. Is that what you're trying to address and understand?

Rob: Yeah, so there's a lot of lot to unpack in that question. We see people with 150 page, well defined style guides, and we see people who barely have anything written down except a handful of brand guidelines. One of the things we hear a lot of times from agencies is, can you help us help the clients better define their brand, because they know what they want, they haven't been explicit about it. We're building a module into BrandGuard called Brand Builder that allows you to define and capture those rules. But we already do a creative job of capturing three simple rules, like the spacing around the logo has to be displayed, a logo can't be turned this way, right. And there's more complicated rules, I think we've seen some fun ones, like no images can show a child using technology without an adult present. That's a hard brand guideline to teach a machine. And so we have an entire synthetic data pipeline that will create pro and con images that put them into a model so that the model can learn that rule. But yeah, you know, it's one of the interesting things about this space, compared to a lot of other use cases of AI is there a lot of ways where AI is going to get better than humans. But in this case, humans sort of define the brand. And maybe we'll get to the point where AI can make suggestions about how you might want to move your brand, which directions which attributes or values, you might want to focus on more than others. But by and large, humans will define brands, brand values, training and datasets for the brand related models. And so I think it's a really good place to be if you're working in AI for that reason, because like you said, so much of it is in people's heads and, you know, you need workflows to sort of get that out and capture as much of it as possible. We also do it through the regular feedback, right? You could we could score something high or low and you could dispute it you can say no, no, this should have been scored a different way and here's why.

Mike: So it's interesting to continually retraining that model. I'm interested when you try and build that that style guide in the AI if you like in the AIS head I don't know if that's the right way to express it. Does it help to have things that are off brand and on brand or do you just feed it the past content that's been approved?

Rob: It helps to have things that are off brand as well. So a lot of times we'll pull some public competitor data, you know, from Nike, we would pull Adidas, just to contrast because that's, you know, I don't know how deep you go in the AI space, but these things are basically mapped to a mathematical space that focuses on similarity. And so if you can say, these things shall be similar to each other in this mathematical As a nice should not you can think of us as drawing a brand boundary in that mathematical space around what's on brand? And what's not.

Mike: And I mean, you've mentioned a few things. But is there any limit to the kind of content that the system can, you know, assess for compliance with brand guidelines? Can it go through to tweets and, and things like that, as well as articles and images?

Rob: I would say it's built first and foremost for marketing materials, primarily advertisements, but we can do a lot of stuff, you know, tweets, tweets are a little bit harder, because they're so short. And the less information that you have, the less accurate you're going to be about if something's on brand or not. Twitter, social media platforms are also an area where you try to be a little maybe more kitschy than you would be in other, you know, types of marketing materials, you're trying to be funny, you're trying to tie to memes, we can pick up on some of that, you know, is this a meme that your brand should want to tie to or not? We do a lot with some of the Instagram influencer use cases, we've been asked to do some some things we're not we're not working on this actively. But we've looked at doing PowerPoint presentations. If you're a consulting firm or real estate firm, you're doing a lot of presentations to people about things, right, you want to make sure those are all on brand for your firm. And you know how people get in and walk around with PowerPoint and change everything. So even if you have templates, it's not right, we've been asked to do product packaging and, and other use cases like that. There's a big use case around licencing as well. So if your sports team and you're, I'm licencing you my logo so that you can use it, I probably have to approve the product shot and the marketing materials around it. And that's very time consuming if you're doing a lot of licencing. So we've we have some customers that have that use case as well.

Mike: Presumably, what you're doing is you're coming back with a score rather than necessarily, yes, it's on brand. No, it's off. I mean, there's always Shades of Grey. I mean, how do you do that? Do you literally provide a score? We do

Rob: we provide a score and some feedback on specific models. So you can decide what to do with that we give you an overall score. But sometimes it could be like, everything's great. But you know, maybe you have a rule that the logo always has to be in the upper left hand side of the page, and it's in the bottom right. And so maybe it scores at 9%, everything's good, but the logo totally fails, we highlight that information for you. And then you can drill down and see where the asset fail.

Mike: That's interesting. I mean, I'm intrigued, you know, people are starting now to use generative AI to create some content marketing content. Do you see humans as being better at staying within the brand guidelines? Or would AI actually be more likely to stay within those guardrails?

Rob: Probably humans. And the reason is that the way that most of these generative models work, and this may change, right, people may come up with a better way that these generative models work. But today, the way they work is you take this world of information and you compress it down into a space. So you can think about a you can think about a song that's compressed, and it's lost some of its fidelity. So think about these ideas, or these images with these words that have done that. And now when you ask it to generate something, it finds an area in that mathematical space that we talked about, and it expands it by introducing some randomness. And so by that randomness, you can never tell what's going to come out. It's a big problem. One of the one of the early examples that we used to do is we would prompt chat GPT with the Tesla style guide and test the rule number one is do not use the word luxury Tesla's not a luxury brand. It is a high performance brand. And then you would we would ask chat, GBT, right, some ads for me to sell Tesla's to rich people and the first one every time they would come out and be like, blah, blah, blah, don't you love luxury, even when you prompted it with the brand guidelines, because luxury and rich are so tied together statistically, in these models, which is how these models work, it's hard for them to break, you can't make it part of the model generation itself. So you need filters over top of it. And I just we don't think it makes sense for every generative AI company to do their own filtering regarding your brand. Because now as a brand manager, if you have 30 tools in your stack, and you have to go through and be like, Okay, well, you know, I'm using open AI and Jasper and WordPress and HubSpot, and figma and Canva. And I have to manage my brand governance piece at all of them. And they'll have slightly different models. So it's not consistent like this, it's not going to work. It's why we've really tried to integrate it with everything because you need one tool that's like this represents my brand to an AI. So we're very heavy on the integration side. We work with figma and Canva, and a whole bunch of other tools today.

Mike: I'm gonna guess we started that that answer talking about, you know, some of the issues around generative AI and it getting a little bit of peace, you know, partly because of the randomness. I mean, how consistently good can I be at enforcing brand guidelines? You know, we hear a lot about hallucinations in generative AI. Do you have the same problem in brand God? We

Rob: don't because we are not generative models we are what's called discriminative models. So we are choosing between things we are not creating things and the hallucinations come from the randomness sits inserted in the creation process. So that's why we sit on top of all these generative models, we can get really, really good. But we can only get as good as the data that we're given to discriminate. And as you know, like brands, an area where sometimes even people on a company, senior people may argue over some aspects of the brand. And if something's on brand or not, there's somebody you know, we see people that have companies that have like usual, big lovable nerd is a brand voice concept. It's like, well, like what does that mean, that's open to interpretation. So that there will always be a little bit of that, we try to focus on providing easy, quick, automated rejection, for stuff that doesn't meet the brand guidelines, and human in the loop approval for stuff that does or may be on the margins.

Mike: That sounds good. And I thought it was a great explanation of the difference between what you're doing and guarantee of AI, I think it's all too common for people to you know, see my eyes just one thing when it's lots of different things. One of the things I'm intrigued in this, you're actually effectively building custom models for each and every customer, which is obviously time consuming. Does that make brand garden expensive products? Is this like only for the largest enterprises? Or is it something can be used by a broader range of customers?

Rob: Well, that most of the process for training models on a per customer basis is automated. So we've gotten pretty efficient at that. So even though we do build different models per customer, they're based on similar workflows, you input your data, and we can we can sort of get there. So that doesn't really drive the cost as much as how much inference you want to do, which is how many things do you want to test to see if they're on brand. So it's, it's a product that starts at about $20,000 a year for small to mid sized customer, and goes on up to you know, mid six figures, maybe for really big brands that to a lot of stuff have multiple brand hierarchies. I think over the years, this will become best practice for everybody. But right now we primarily see most of our customers are, I'd say, like fortune 5000 brands right there, the brand matters a lot to them, we've had CMOS tell us, they can estimate how much revenue they lose if an ad goes out with the wrong font. So, you know, really big companies with a lot of data on the impact that brand guidelines have on their brand and on and on customer perception. So that is the majority of our market now. But I do think it's coming down market over time. And

Mike: I mean, one of the questions, I think people, you know, interested in the product might wonder is how would they go about evaluating the product. I mean, obviously, you can't just run a, you know, one week test, you've got to build the models, is there a way for someone to experiment without having to commit to a year subscription? We do, we have test

Rob: accounts you can play with. So we use flex brothers a lot, we have a Brooks Brothers demo account where you can read the brand guidelines, you can upload stuff, and that'll give you a general feel for how the tool works. And then what we normally do is we normally move to some sort of paid pilot that might be like 10, grand, maybe a little bit more, depending on how big you are, where we take in some of your data and train up some models, that process normally takes about 48 hours to get that going. And then people can try it out for a couple of months and play around with it. You know, the bigger challenge tends to be internally, how do you build it into your workflows? Your workflows have probably been mostly human based approvals? How do you migrate those over to a tool like this?

Mike: That's amazing, because I mean, 48 hours to get up and running seems very quick. So you know, sounds like it's actually not a difficult tool to evaluate and test and play with them. Certainly, the Brooks demo account sounds fun. Yeah,

Rob: it is, it is pretty easy to get going. And I just mentioned, there's multiple ways to use it. There's a web app, there's a Chrome plugin, there's an API. So we have people that use all those

Mike: awesome. I'm, you know, you're obviously a big believer in AI. And, you know, you found an area of marketing that really benefits from Ai. I mean, how do you think AI in the next five years is going to change marketing,

Rob: I think you're gonna see every marketing stack become more automated and more AI powered. And I think what that's going to do so if you look at a lot of the research around AI, it doesn't improve the top, it brings up the bottom. So here's a very interesting example, think about chat, GPT. Chat GPT does probably not make your world class writers much better. Maybe it'll inspire them here and there with some ideas, but it makes your poor writers average, much, much better, right? So so take the bottom half of writers, it makes them average, take the you know, next quartile makes them a little bit better take your best writers, it doesn't do that much for them. So now, what does that mean? If you translate AI into your automated marketing stack, it means that if you look at your marketing, operational excellence, and your creativity and all kinds of stuff, all the people at the bottom are going to now be up here. And so your, your difference between the best and the worst is going to shrink, mainly because the bottom comes up. Not that not because the top comes down. It's going to be easier to be a competent sort of performance marketer or, you know, brand marketer just from these tools. It'll always be hard to be great because you have to have something special. You have to have a process or an insight or things that other people don't have But I think a lot of what's gonna go away is a lot of your operations are going to be automated, it's gonna do a couple things. Number one, it's gonna make brand strength more important. So focusing on building the brand, really honing those attributes and values and how they connect to the customer. And what they mean in the mind of the customer is gonna be really important, even for smaller companies that maybe thought less about their brand before. And then I think the second thing is, marketers are going to become more and more strategic planners, trainers for the AI models, strategists continually being creative and coming up with new ideas to test and innovate and, and stuff like that, and less of the right me 10 more Google ads for this persona.

Mike: That's fascinating. I mean, one of the things we'd like to ask all our guests is, what advice would they give if someone said, Should I go into marketing someone just leaving college or entering college? I'm intrigued, it sounds like it's potentially gonna be tough, you know, particularly if you're in that, that bottom half of marketing ability to, to really stand out, would you would you say that marketing's a career that's got a lot of opportunity going forward? Or do you think AI is going to make it more and more difficult to stand out?

Rob: I think it's already playing the stack. I think brand marketing and content marketing, PR com stuff like that is gonna matter a lot more. I think your fast turn stuff like social and performance marketing is going to be more and more automated away. So which is interesting, because if you'd asked me, you know, seven years ago, I'd say well, oh, God, you want to be the person who masters Google, and Facebook advertising, right? Like that's drives so many people's leads. Now, I think you'd be the opposite. I think you want to work on being the most creative, the most experimental, the best at using these AI tools to test and experiment and prove or disprove hypotheses about your customers.

Mike: That's, that's such a fascinating way to look at it. And I think a very positive view of some of the opportunities. Another thing we'd like to ask everyone is about marketing advice. And what's the best bit of marketing advice that you've ever been given? Oh,

Rob: that's a good question. I mean, this is a hard thing to pull off. And not every brand can pull it off. But there was a book that was written probably 20 years ago now called Purple Cow by Seth Godin. And he made this great point that like, you know, if you're a farm that for whatever reason, produces this freakish Purple Cow, you don't have to market it, everybody talks about it, because it stands out. Now. There are certain categories that people just don't care about as much. And it's hard to stand out and be remarkable. But if you can make a product that that's, it's that remarkable, it really markets itself, and that, that that matters quite a bit. And so I think when you can find those opportunities, you should really, really lean into them, because they're very special. Great advice,

Mike: I love it. Rob, you've been really generous with your time, you've given us not only a great explanation about managing brands, and how brands can help, but also think given us a really good overview of, you know, some elements of AI. If people are interested to learn more, either about BrandGuard or contact yourself, what's the best way to do that, feel free

Rob: to visit our website BrandGuard.ai. And then you can email me, I'm just rob at brain guard.ai. I can't get to everybody sometimes. But I you know, I do try to set aside a couple hours a month to talk to people that are interested in AI making career transitions, you know, we try to one of our core values as a company is to be helpful. And that includes people in the AI ecosystem and marketing systems. So we, you know, like I say, can't get to everybody, but I did try to set aside some time to answer questions and help us stuff like that for the, you know, even strangers that email me.

Mike: But that's amazing and very generous. Rob, it's been great. And you know, anyone who's struggling, managing content and making sure it meets brand guidelines. I think, you know, going visiting brand garden AI would be a great next step to take. Thank you very much for being on the podcast, Rob.

Rob: Yeah, thanks for having me. This was fun.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes, or on your favourite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at Napier B2B dot com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

by Natasha Websdale

A Napier Podcast Interview with Sara Madison - Outbrain

Sara Madison, Global Head of Product Marketing at Outbrain, an advertising platform, sat down with Mike to talk all things advertising. She discusses the industry's current challenges, why she believes audience attention will become an increasingly important metric and offers her thoughts on whether LinkedIn is a good use of a B2B advertising budget.

She also discusses her passion for product marketing and how her experience in both large enterprises and start-ups has influenced her career.

Listen to the podcast now via the links below:

• ‎Marketing B2B Technology on Apple Podcasts
• Marketing B2B Technology on Spotify
• Marketing B2B Technology on napierb2b.com

About Outbrain

Outbrain is a leading technology platform that drives business results by engaging people across the open internet. Outbrain predicts moments of engagement to drive measurable outcomes for advertisers and publishers using AI and machine learning across more than 7,000 online properties globally. Founded in 2006, Outbrain is headquartered in New York with offices in Israel and across the United States, Europe, Asia-Pacific, and South America.

About Sara

Sara, who is the Global Head of Product Marketing Outbrain, is a digital media specialist with experience designing and leading strategic initiatives in startups and large organizations. She has a track record helping organizations solve issues, create value, maximize growth and improve business performance with a highly analytical approach.

 Time Stamps

[00:46.1] – Sara discusses her career journey in marketing.

[03:47.7] – Sara talks about Outbrain, what it is and its capabilities.

[06:48.8] – Sara discusses challenges in the advertising industry.

[13:19.2] – Sara shares how Microsoft successfully used Outbrain to support a campaign.

[17:52.4] – Is LinkedIn a good use of B2B advertising budget? Sara shares her opinions.

[26:11.9] – Sara’s contact details.

Quotes

“Approach marketing with an open mind, it's important to be curious and to be open to learning things before committing on a specific path.” Sara Madison, Global Head of Product Marketing at Outbrain.

 Follow Sara:

Sara Madison on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sara-madison-21028434/

Outbrain website: https://www.outbrain.com/

Outbrain on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/outbrain/

Follow Mike:

Mike Maynard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemaynard/

Napier website: https://www.napierb2b.com/

Napier LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/napier-partnership-limited/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our podcast for more discussions about the latest in Marketing B2B Tech and connect with us on social media to stay updated on upcoming episodes. We'd also appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.

Want more? Check out Napier’s other podcast - The Marketing Automation Moment: https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/the-marketing-automation-moment-podcast/id1659211547

Transcript: Interview with Sara Madison - Outbrain

Speakers: Mike Maynard, Sara Madison

Mike: Thanks for listening to Marketing B2B Tech, the podcast from Napier, where you can find out what really works in B2B marketing today. Welcome to Marketing B2B Technology, the podcast from Napier. Today, I'm joined by Sara Madison. Sara is the Global Head of Product Marketing at Outbrain. Welcome to the podcast, Sara.

Sara: Hi, thank you. Thank you for having me here.

Mike: It's great to have you on. And I think we're gonna have an interesting discussion about what Outbrain does, and some of the things people are doing to increase engagement. But before we start, can you just tell us a little bit about you know, your history and how you've got to the point where you're running marketing at Outbrain? Yeah,

Sara: perfect. I've been working in advertising and marketing for almost 15 years now. I started working in Spain, that's where he did my studies. And now I'm working in in the UK. And in those 15 years, I've really done many different roles within the space. So I worked with brands, creating visuals, and creating good looking collateral. I've worked as sales really working with agencies and pitching to clients. And I've also had more technical positions where I've been working closely with engineers, and actually seeing how they were building the products and really needing to understand the underlying technology that my clients were using. And so all of this experience in different companies, you know, small companies, large companies, really brought me into product marketing, that, you know, having a view of sales, marketing, and how product works, really is that key piece of Product Marketing, it's an extremely cross functional area within marketing. And I really love the strategic aspect of it. So really, on a day to day, I'm using all of my past experiences in product marketing. So that's, that's what brought me into Product Marketing. And today, I am heading up the global product marketing team at Outbrain. I've been here for about a year now. And and yeah, I'm really loving it.

Mike: It works with some interesting brands, I mean, both consumer and also B2B, haven't you? Yes,

Sara: the first role that I had was that Coca Cola and the communications teams are really seeing how you build a brand across traditional media and digital media. I've also worked at Yahoo, and seeing how how they did like branded content selling. My most recent role was at Spotify, where I was working in the product marketing team, and I was the first person in the advertising product marketing team based outside of the US. And so there, I was really establishing and landing the product marketing function for the rest of the world. So also working out what international market strategy looks like. So yeah, I mean, I've definitely worked at many different companies, I've also worked for a few startups that aren't as well known. And so I think it was really great to see how, you know, larger companies that have a larger name or a more established name, work, and also working at startups that aren't as well known in the industry.

Mike: It sounds like you've had, like this incredible range of experience. And you've now chosen to come to Outbrain. So maybe a good place to move on to explain what Outbrain has done. And I'm sure you know, people listening probably will have seen Outbrain out there on the web, or if not, you know, if they don't recognise it would have certainly encountered what you do. So can you explain a little bit about what Outbrain does?

Sara: Yeah, of course. So Outbrain is an ad platform. And what we do is we connect to advertisers with over 1.3 billion users across the open web every day. And so the way that the business work is that on the one hand, we partner with 1000s, of publishers, to help them drive audience development, help them monetize their audience. And we also provide them with tools to be able to diversify their own revenue streams. And so this is an extremely hot topic for publishers today. And on the flip side, we work with advertisers and we connect them with audiences, through ads that really coexist with the content that users are consuming on publisher sites. So that's, you know, our ad platform is really connecting the two. And the differentiation or the strength of the Outbrain ad platform is that we're able to understand and predict what audiences are going to be interested in and what content or ads they're most likely to engage with, and then click on ads. And the way that we do this is with our prediction engine. So for, I think it's like 17 years now Outbrain has been, you know, creating its own proprietary Prediction Engine. And it's something that is extremely powerful. And it allows us to connect with, you know, with users with the most relevant ads and content. And the Outbrain ad platform really does do that combination of things. It helps publishers drive revenues, it helps advertisers reach audiences. And at the same time, it allows users or it really brings relevant content to users. And

Mike: you do this with a slightly different approach to sort of, you know, classic banner advertising, you're kind of recommending content on your both organic content and also paid. Can you talk a little bit about what you're doing there and why you mix the two? Yeah,

Sara: that's a really key part of our offering, it's it's extremely important for us to balance content or editorial content and ads and finding that that right mix to be able to drive the revenues that we need to drive for publishers and the outcomes that we need to drive for advertisers. But at the same time, we need to make sure that we are engaging the users. And we know that engagement is really driven by content that users are, you know, want to interact with and that they're interested in. So we do really provide that balance between ads and content.

Mike: So it's great that let's look back. I mean, last year wasn't the best year for the advertising industry, a lot of people struggled. But I think also at the same time, you had some high. So do you want to tell me about, you know, what happened last year? And what Outbrain is doing going into 2024? Yeah, definitely.

Sara: 2023 was a tough year for advertising in general, we saw widespread budget cuts. And the cost of living crisis really meant that everyone was really squeezed in the space. So I think that 2023 was one of those years where it just really highlighted the importance of having a strong strategy and really focusing on efficiency. And right now, that's something that Outbrain has really been laser focused on. So, you know, we've seen that in the last year. Roi is, you know, just more important than ever, and advertisers, we want to see real, measurable results. And not just for conversions, but really in every stage of the user journey. And so, while 2023 was a rough year, we also saw it as an opportunity to continue to build on our strengths and start to develop products that are going to continue to address these evolving advertiser needs. And so that's why, you know, in 2023, we launched onyx, which is a new offering that really helps us deliver attention and engagement for brands and agencies. So for enterprise, advertisers. And so with this incorporation of onyx, now, we are able to continue to answer to that growing need for ROI throughout the funnel, delivering cross funnel outcomes with our ad suite.

Mike: And can you just unpack I mean, you talk a lot about attention and engagement. So, you know, what are you doing there? Is it driving people to content through paid? Just explain a little bit about what advertisers get when you talk about those two things?

Sara: Yeah, definitely. Attention, I think is something that that we're really focusing on, especially with our Onyx offering, I can give you more detail into what Onyx is and how we're using attention to drive results for brands. Onyx is really an attention centric offering. As I mentioned, our key segment or the key segment that we're going after is enterprise brands and agencies. With onyx, we're able to allow these advertisers to deliver rich video and display creatives in highly viewable placements with 100% Share of Voice. So Onyx is being delivered in highly viewable placements with experiences that drive great user engagement. And what makes Onyx exciting is our ability to predict audience attention. And so this is where the intention piece comes in. Onyx is powered by our prediction engine or the Outbrain Prediction Engine. So we're using that strength in our ability to look at different data points from across our network and use that to power our prediction engine to be able to deliver outcomes for brands. So what makes Onyx really exciting is that we're able to predict audience attention. And the way that we do this is the backbone or what is powering Onyx is really our prediction engine. It's our ability to look at different data points from across our network to be able to predict certain engagement. And now we are using attention as a data point that we are leveraging to really drive results for brands and agencies. So attention is actually turning into something that we are optimising for, we are measuring and we're optimising attention, the way that we're optimising attention is working with industry providers. So with partners that are measuring attention throughout the open web, and and they are really providing us with these data points that then we can then use to, to drive these, these outcomes. And

Mike: that's interesting, you've got this engine effectively, that is working out what people want to see and trying to feed it the right content, are you building those models, you know, on a per client basis, on a company by company basis, or is it much more about, you know, industries and sectors, the way

Sara: that we that we power our prediction engine is by really collecting all of those data points from across our network. And using that to power, different campaigns that different advertisers are, are setting up. So we will really adapt that prediction based on what the advertisers goals are or what type of content or audience they they want to engage with. So the Prediction Engine will adapt to the needs of the different advertisers and whatever campaign outcomes they they want to achieve.

Mike: That sounds great. I mean, it feels to me a little bit that maybe it's built around very large campaigns, you know, the sort of consumer advertisers, but I think you do work with B2B. So can you talk a little bit about how you can work with B2B and maybe deal with, you know, the fact that some of those budgets aren't quite as big as coke?

Sara: Yeah, definitely. So our brains ad platform doesn't only cater to B2C advertisers, we also are able to deliver solutions for B2B. As I mentioned before, the platform is really able to adapt to different types of advertisers needs. So you know, to give you an example, some B2B advertisers will really prioritise branded content, and this can be very crucial for them. And we can create personalised user journeys that will help attract audiences to that content, and help them you know, using our prediction engine to generate leads, and continue to build brand awareness. And when it comes to the budgets, as you mentioned, we are quite flexible. So it really is, is a platform that can adapt to different needs.

Mike: But I'm really pleased, Sara, you said that you do a lot of B2B because we'd have been trouble if you didn't. But, you know, I think one of the things I'd be interested in is, you know, do you have some examples of maybe how B2B companies have used the platform successfully?

Sara: Yeah, definitely. We ran a very successful Microsoft campaign, Microsoft wanted to to drive leads for their field, one solution. So field one is a service management software that they offer to enterprise. And when they came to us, they were asking to, again, drive leads from their high value audiences. And so for this, they had created a site that was promoting a webinar, where they would provide audiences with information about field one services. So when they came to us, we set up a campaign for them, where we were able to connect relevant audiences to their site and increase their site conversion by 75%. So this was a very effective campaign for for Microsoft. One of the solutions that we use for this was conversion bid strategy. So this is one of our offerings, that does dynamic bidding, to be able to optimise campaigns towards higher performing inventory and audiences so that really was able to drive that growth that Microsoft saw on their sites. One of the most exciting things about this campaign was that Microsoft was running on social media as well. And Outbrain was able to deliver 180% more leads than social and 50% lower cost per acquisition compared to social so we really saw that we were extremely impactful for Microsoft in in that this B2B campaign and also we performs better than their social campaigns.

Mike: That's amazing that that's impressive. And it's good that you're not just talking about driving traffic, you're really looking at conversions. I think that's, that's important for a lot of B2B companies. And I think some people looking at Outbrain see it as being a traffic driver? And obviously a lot more than that. Exactly.

Sara: Definitely, we're not only driving traffic, we're for advertisers, we're generating value for the brands as well. And really looking at that funnel. So what can we do for brands, from awareness to consideration and all the way down to conversion?

Mike: That's brilliant. I'm going to ask you about a potential challenge. Now, it seems like Google, you know, at the time we're talking, is finally starting to block third party cookies on Chrome, having talked about it forever. I know you use a mix of different cookies for tracking. So what sort of impact do you think that's going to have on Outbrain? And I don't know, Sara, maybe do you want to comment on how it's going to impact online advertising as a whole? Yeah,

Sara: I mean, we've been talking about cookie deprecation for a while now, I do have to say that I think that Outbrain is well positioned to navigate this change, we have a data collection system that is coming from our own integrations with publishers, as I mentioned before, we work with 1000s of publishers across the open web. And through those integrations, we are able to collect our own data around the contexts, the interest, the user, even the campaign performance, these are all data points that we are using to be able to drive that prediction engine. So we are able to deliver effective advertising without relying or without having a huge reliance on third party cookies. And so as I mentioned, like, I do think that that's going to be something that is going to help us navigate and continue to deliver true results for advertisers. That said, we are actively exploring additional ways that we can meet advertisers needs and develop strategic partnerships with industry leaders in the targeting space. And we're also looking into developing more first party data solutions. So we are definitely looking into more things that we can do when it comes to targeting. But I would say that, that we we don't have that much of a reliance on third party cookies.

Mike: So that's really interesting. I mean, you're obviously delivering results, as you talked about when you talked about the Microsoft example. Yet we're still seeing in the B2B sector, LinkedIn taking a larger and larger share of display advertising. I mean, why do you think that is? Do you think that's really delivering the results that people want? Or do you think it's just an easy way to spend those advertising dollars?

Sara: I think that many B2B companies are looking at LinkedIn as a space where they could advertise, amongst other things, because it is a social platform. And because a lot of advertising in general is just starting to become very concentrated on the socials. I think that part of this is because a lot of time spent with users is happening on social platforms. And so the market is becoming very concentrated here. And that's not necessarily an ideal scenario for advertisers. I think that it's important to remember that users are consuming different types of content throughout the day, on socials and including on publisher sites on the open web. And the behaviour that users have in each environment is extremely different. I don't think that we can compare the way that users are scrolling through social. And you know, I don't even include LinkedIn, I am definitely scrolling through my LinkedIn feed to the behaviour that a user has when they're on a publisher site. And they are reading through an article, I think that there's an intentionality there, that's not necessarily what you will find on the social platforms. So I think that marketers should think about engaging with consumers in different ways throughout the day. So it's not necessarily choosing one environment over another. It's how can you close the gaps in that user journey and connect with users in in different ways? And, you know, really thinking about the attention that you're able to drive on the open web on publisher sites. And I think that marketers that are able to incorporate that attention from the open web into their media plans, are we going to be able to enhance their overall performance?

Mike: I think that's a great point, Sara, I'm intrigued that she I mean, how the publishers see Outbrain and put particularly interested in the B2B sector because obviously, in B2B, typically those publishers are generating much higher CPMs than maybe some of the consumer sites.

Sara: Yeah, we have great relationships with publishers, and some of our founders are coming from the publishing industry. So it's really part of our DNA. And our success is very tied to theirs. So I wouldn't say that we have issues with integrating with B2B publishers. The reason that I say this is because we have multiple ways that we can work with publishers, as I mentioned before, we work with publishers to drive audience development, monetization, and also revenue diversification. So it's a very flexible suite of solutions that we offer publishers, and so we really adapt to their individual needs.

Mike: That sounds great. I mean, you know, I can understand certainly today publishers being very keen to find additional sources of income. If our listeners are looking to run campaigns, and they want to test something on Outbrain. I mean, how easy is it to run a test campaign on outbound, you have to, you know, spend a lot of time learning and understanding the platform because it's different, or is it fairly straightforward,

Sara: it's, it's extremely straightforward, you can just go to outbrain.com. And choose if you're a publisher, and advertiser and fill in a form where someone will get in touch with you and help you get set up. And for example, for an advertiser, once you have access to our advertiser dashboard, you can go in and set up your own campaign goals, set up different formats, launch test campaigns, our solution is a fully self serve platform. So it's extremely easy to get started, we also have a help centre, and onboarding documents to make sure that the process is a lot easier.

Mike: And presumably, once you're set up, you can run small test campaigns before you start running out major ones, there's not minimum ad spends on those campaigns. Exactly. That sounds great. I mean, you've obviously done a lot of Outbrain to change the way people do digital advertising. I'm interested to know, you know, what's your view as to how advertising on the web is gonna change over the next few years?

Sara: Well, I think that we're all really seeing that the media landscape is fully shifting towards video first, consumption. And a lot of that consumption is happening on social platforms. So I think that open web players really need to adapt to this new reality. And we need to focus on attracting and engaging both audiences and advertisers through video first experiences. So that's definitely something that I think is going to is going to be top of mind for many players in the space. I think that there are also a few trends that we're starting to see that are really landing. We've talked about attention metrics before. But I think that attention metrics are going to evolve from nice to haves to potentially becoming currency. And another thing that hopefully we'll start seeing more of is how we are all starting to reimagine targeting, I think that we'll start seeing more creative targeting solutions that are more focused on things like outcomes, instead of demographics.

Mike: That's great. It sounds like you know, publishers need to pay attention to some of these trends as well as advertisers, I think particularly video is important. Yes. It's been really interesting talking to you, Sara, just like to ask a couple of more personal questions we'd like to ask people well, the first is, you know, what's the best bit of marketing advice you've ever been given?

Sara: I've had a lot of great advice. But one thing that I always go back to is that I remind myself to be data driven, and give myself the time for strategic thinking before taking action. I think it's easy to fall into a trap of simply doing things to go with the flow, especially when workloads are high. And we're really focusing on delivering, but taking time to actively use data to guide your decisions and then take really purposeful actions really does make a world of difference. So I definitely say that giving yourself the necessary time to stop, look at the data review, plan. And then act is is key.

Mike: I love adding as great advice. You seem really excited about the future of marketing. So I think the answer the next question would be quite positive. I mean, what would you tell a young person who was maybe considering marketing as a career, would you recommend it?

Sara: Of course, definitely. I mean, I really love marketing, I would say to that person to approach marketing with an open mind. Marketing is a massive field, and it has tonnes of areas of expertise. And I think that when you're coming into it, it's important to be curious and to be open to learning things before committing on a specific path. You know, to give you an example, when I started, I saw myself brainstorming at a creative agency. And now I'm in product marketing, and I'm loving it. And it's, it's a role that can be very technical at times. So really, my point is, don't limit yourself based on your initial thoughts of what you think marketing is. Spend some time to explore, try things out, and then who knows where you might find your passion within marketing. That's

Mike: great advice. I love that. Obviously, you know, if people want to try Outbrain, you've already said go to outbrain.com. But if people are particularly interested by something you've said or want to follow up, is there a way that the listeners could contact you after the episode?

Sara: Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn, and you just have to search for Sara Madison. Brilliant.

Mike: Sara, this this has been fascinating. It's great to hear how much innovation that there is in advertising. So I think you know, this is a particularly interesting episode. I really appreciate your time. Thank you.

Sara: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Mike: Thanks so much for listening to marketing B2B Tech. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please make sure you subscribe on iTunes, or on your favourite podcast application. If you'd like to know more, please visit our website at Napier B2B dot com or contact me directly on LinkedIn.

by Natasha Websdale